Parental Alienation Exposed: Lisa Johnson’s Playbook for Dads Fighting Back

Brent Dowlen: [00:00:00] If your ex is turning your kids against you, you’re not crazy and you’re not powerless. Today we’re cutting through the chaos with Lisa Johnson, co-founder of Been There, got Out a High Conflict Divorce, strateg strategist and certified DV Advocate, whose own case became legal precedent and whose testimony helped pass Jennifer’s law.

In the next hour, you’ll get a first 30 day clear playbook, evidence that actually lands in family court, what to say, what not to say to your kids, to other people, and how to protect your sanity while you fight for your relationship. This is driven 2 thrive, purpose, growth, and lasting impact for men.

Let’s get into it.

If a dad realizes this week that his kids are being turned against him, no lawyer yet limited money, what exactly should he start to do in the next 72 hours to protect the bond? His case that’s. Likely coming. And what one reaction would cause more damage if he did it? [00:01:00]

Lisa Johnson: Ooh, that’s like a loaded question.

Okay. So legally from the moment you see this stuff happening, you have to start putting together a really airtight parenting plan and make sure that written in that parenting plan, which is basically the schedule of what it’s gonna be like when you do separate, are there are, there’s deadlines, consequences, and enforcement language, so that you’re not just going back to court when your ex, and notice I didn’t say if I said when, when your ex violates that schedule.

So you make it easy when you go back to court to signal to the judge what needs to happen. So that’s the number one thing. And then in terms of how to deal with a child right away, uh, your intuition is to say things like, well, that’s not true. And to, to try to, um, kind of combat what your ex is saying or what your, your spouse is saying, that doesn’t work because kids.

Feel like they love both their parents, no matter how bad their parents are, and that [00:02:00] both parents are telling the truth. So if one parent is sending poisonous messages about you and you’re just standing there defending yourself, the child doesn’t know who to believe. So it makes it even more confusing.

So one way to approach this is when a child comes to you and is saying these things or pulling back, is you want to open yourself up to being curious about how the child feels more important than solving the problem or getting to the truth, but focusing on validating their feelings because they’re dealing with a lot of confusion.

And just remember that it’s not about finding the truth, it’s about validating their confusion and their feelings. First,

Brent Dowlen: before we go deeper, this episode is brought to you by MyPillow. Right now you can get their premium bedsheets just 29 88. Any size, any color. They’ve also got towels, bath masks, and even men’s towel wraps.

And guys, I use this stuff every day. My house is loaded with my mill MyPillow stuff. It’s legit. That’s why I can stand [00:03:00] behind them because I’m a MyPillow customer as well. Go to mypillow.com/thrive or call 1-800-794-FIVE 8 3 4 and use promo code Thrive to get up to 80% off your order. That’s mypillow.com/thrive or 807 9 4 5 8 3 4.

Use promo code Thrive. They’re a great American company, employee owned, so you’re taking care of our own. Shopping with them helps keep shows like this on the air and free. So thank you in advance, the Driven to Thrive broadcast purpose, growth, and lasting impact for men, helping men go from living to thriving, purpose-filled intentional lives.

Welcome to The Driven 2 Thrive broadcast purpose, growth, and lasting impact for men. I’m your host, Brent Dowlen, and we help men go from living to thriving purpose-filled intentional lives. Today’s interview is gonna be a lot more formal than I normally do because we’re digging deep for information to help you guys out.

My guest today is Lisa Johnson. She’s the co-founder of Been. [00:04:00] Their Got Out a high conflict conflict divorce strategist and certified DV advocate, whose own case became legal president. She helped pass Connecticut’s Jennifer’s law, expanding dv, thus domestic violence to include Essive control, and now coach’s parents through court and co-parenting. Hell,

Lisa, welcome to the Driven 2 Thrive broadcast.

Lisa Johnson: Thanks. I’m so thrilled to be here.

Brent Dowlen: I’m really excited about this conversation and we’re gonna dive in hard and fast. Guys, the conversation’s gonna be a little different pace than my normal episodes of this, your first time visiting with us, but Lisa has so much to share with us.

I just want to just go hard and deep on this one. So. Lisa in one minute or less, how do you define parental alienation versus a child’s justified estrangement due to abuse and what? Red flags separate the two in practice?

Lisa Johnson: Ooh, it’s, it’s really tricky for people on the outside [00:05:00] because often you can’t tell when something is, like you said, the word justified.

So justified estrangement is basically when a child doesn’t want to have contact or is pulling back from a parent where there is documented or justified abuse or neglect. So be, let’s say before parents split that parent and the child had a strained relationship or some really bad things happened, and so the child is rationally, um, rejecting the parent parental alienation or, um, poisoning the well is where one person or usually the other parent is.

Saying bad things or sending, there’s a number of things they can do to make the child believe that they have to completely reject or discard one of their parents. And it’s, it’s a very complex issue, but it often has to do with loyalty and a child not being able to love both parents. So children who [00:06:00] don’t have any justification, but it’s like sudden and it’s extreme.

So, for example, um, one of our one, uh, a therapist that I’d interviewed was talking about how he was dealing with an alienated child. The child hadn’t talked to his father for two years when the therapist said, what is the reason for, for why you haven’t seen your father talk? You don’t wanna talk to him.

And he said, well, when I was in third grade, he didn’t get me the crayons that I wanted. That is not a reason to completely reject a parent. And those are the kinds of things that kids sometimes fixate on when they’re getting a lot of pressure from the other parent.

Brent Dowlen: Oh, we’re gonna gonna cover a lot of ground today, guys.

Yes. To what are the most persistent myths about parental alienation you encounter in court and in your practice and advising people in the media, and why are they dangerous for kids?

Lisa Johnson: So I think one of the myths, and this is something that our clients [00:07:00] talk about all the time, is they never thought this would happen.

They think that if they were an involved, loving parent. Something like this would never, never happen to them. This happens to a lot of people. And we mentioned, uh, just before we got on, it’s, it’s between 20 to 22 million people in America and Canada alone, and it’s a global problem and one in three divorced dads approximately say that they have suffered from, uh, parental alienation.

I think with men in particular, um, there are different issues with domestic violence and that. Uh, there’s a lot of suicide that’s probably connected with domestic violence because men are not as apt to talk about it. There’s not as many communities for men to, to share their experience. One thing that, that we do with our clients that is very unusual in the domestic violence space that I’m very proud of is we have a weekly legal abuse support group and we blend our men and women [00:08:00] together partially because they’re all like sweetie pies and we adore them and they’re all very smart and successful, and they’re good at researching.

So they share resources with each other. But I also think it’s important for women to understand the male perspective on domestic violence and to see what they have in common. And also to support each other, um, just to develop radical empathy for each other. And I adore those. Uh, I don’t mind working on Sundays because I adore the dynamic in our group and especially.

Hearing women, um, teaching men how to get their voices back and stand up to their exes. So it’s just, it’s just lovely. And I think it is important for men in particular to have communities where they can talk about what’s happening to them, because I think, um, with all the complaints that, that people use about not being believed, it is harder for men in our society because there’s certain expectations, um, about what it means to be a man.

And that’s why [00:09:00] men are afraid to talk about it because they think they’re not gonna be believed.

Brent Dowlen: Let me just stop right now and say thank you. Just, just thank you on behalf of, I’ve, I’ve done a lot of work with survivors of domestic violence, whatever the proper term, and I’m sure I didn’t use that right, because some people definitely get really picky about how they identify or are labeled in that situation.

I’ve interviewed male domestic violence survivors and listened to them pour out their heart.

Lisa Johnson: Mm-hmm.

Brent Dowlen: In the horror of no one listening to them, no one believing them. ’cause they’re a guy that can’t happen to you. And the amount of men who are domestically abused is, is startling. People don’t realize it’s almost as high as women.

Lisa Johnson: Right.

Brent Dowlen: Uh, so thank you for being in place for those men because I know working in men’s circles, there are not a [00:10:00] lot of places where men can feel like they can open up and deal with that. Uh, because we are, we’re told, you know, shut up, suck it up. You’re a guy, you need to deal with it. Um, this

Lisa Johnson: Yeah. Can’t you handle, you’re a woman.

Brent Dowlen: Right? This is, this is part of why we do this show is we’re bucking the trend on the argument of masculinity and manhood and, and what that actually looks like, uh, for men. Trying to break some of those really bad misconceptions or ideologies that have plagued us for years. So, but thank you. Just, I, I, I have to say thank you.

This, there are so few places for those men. To feel.

Lisa Johnson: Yeah, you’re, you’re welcome. I mean, like my partner Chris is, we we’re a couple in real life for more than 10 years and we always say he’s the male perspective on domestic violence. He’s a big guy too. He’s six three and um, he used to play football and he is a domestic [00:11:00] violence survivor and you are using the right turn.

Domestic abuse, domestic violence. And I’m thinking also, there’s a guy named Carl that I interviewed a few years ago. He’s six seven. He talk. His story was one of the most heartbreaking that I’ve ever heard, and he talked about in his marriage. Um, his wife was all not as tall as he was, but she was an athlete.

She was strong. And she would get in his face and scream at him and be like, what are you gonna do? And she’d say, I’m gonna slit your throat in your sleep. And even after they separated for a full year when she was out of the house, he was so traumatized that he couldn’t sleep at night. And he put furniture in front of the door for a, a whole year.

And it’s still, even though he’s moved on and he’s gotten remarried, this is a long time ago, he’s still. Can remember that and is, is afraid occasionally. And, and that’s the thing is when you’ve been affected by this, like, time can help, but it’s really getting the support to process what’s happened [00:12:00] that that needs.

And, and I think being around other people who’ve experienced it is very comforting and validating. As long as they don’t keep you in the cycle of the trauma, it’s like, okay, how can we move forward? But it is so important to be validated, especially for men, like you said. Um, but like I I will reiterate, some of our most heartbreaking cases are male victims.

Brent Dowlen: Absolutely. Now we’re gonna, we’re gonna two part this question, Lisa. First for anyone listening who is not familiar with this, what is reunification therapy?

Lisa Johnson: Okay, so reunification therapy generally is, there’s a therapist who, alright, so, so it starts with, um, a relationship that has been not necessarily completely severed, but a child is resisting contact or communication with one parent.

It’s usually during or post-divorce. And so reunification therapy is put in place because [00:13:00] generally the courts believe that a child deserves the right to have a close, uh, relationship with two healthy parents. And if one parent is attempting to undermine that relationship. That’s, that’s very unhealthy, not just for the parents, for their own parental rights, but for a child because there’s all kinds of terrible things that, um, can affect their mental health, their physical health, with having that primary attachment bond severed when it’s not natural.

So, reunification therapy is, is therapy where it’s trying to get the children to, and the, the child and the parent to repair the relationship. So the problem is, is a lot of times when a child has been separated, whether it’s from being brainwashed or just not spending time around a parent for so long, that that parent feels like a stranger, they don’t wanna go.

So how do you deal with a child? Because if the goal is to have a close relationship, again, is forcing a [00:14:00] child to be in the same room as the parent. Like is that what kind of relationship you want? Like a child who’s already afraid? So reunification, therapist has to figure out ways to try to work on this relationship.

And that’s why I was saying if you just make it sound like a child is the problem, then. The ch you know, it’s, it’s not really fair. So that’s why working with family systems therapists is important because they look at the bigger dynamics of the family as a unit, like what happened. And like I said, it’s really important for the therapist to not just work with a child, but to work with the parent that’s causing the problems.

I have to admit, you know, all of our clients are domestic violence victims, but sometimes based on their own experience, they are inadvertently or unconsciously doing alienating behaviors. And so one of the things we do with our clients in situations like these is we teach them what’s called the alienation factors.

And those are based on something called the Baker model, Dr. Amy Baker. [00:15:00] Is a, um, a therapist and a researcher and an author, and her factors are used to build an alienation case. And I think people get really scared when they hear the word because a lot of people are falsely accused of it. But also when they realize what those factors are, they’re like, wait a second, my ex is actually doing that.

So it’s really, really important to understand what those different factors are so you can start, um, figuring out like what to do about if we, you know, there’s all kinds of ways to, to take care of it. Anyway. Um, back to reunification therapy, that’s, it’s, it’s important for the therapist to again, work with the whole family, but also to figure out how to make the alienating parent understand that their behavior is harming the child.

Now, a lot of people who do this have personality disorders, so they don’t really care and that’s what they want. They wanna harm the other parent, but. Sometimes there’s leverage you can use and there’s sanctions that [00:16:00] can be, uh, you know, used as punishment for someone who behaves like this. But it’s, it’s very, very complex.

I actually, um, recently met a kind of superstar reunification therapist, and I’m gonna be interviewing soon. I have tons of questions for her. But one thing that she talked about was how if a child refuses to go to reunification therapy, then she makes the parent who’s responsible, usually the alienating parent, um, to work with her.

So the child won’t, they can’t just be like, oh, there’s nothing we can do about it. No, if you can’t make the child go, then I’m gonna work with you. And there’s things that, that therapist can do to work with the parent to ensure that they will comply with making an effort to show that they are trying to support the repair of the relationship between the child and the targeted parent.

I don’t know if that’s too complex of an answer.

Brent Dowlen: No, I love it. ’cause I didn’t have to ask part two of the que answer the question. You, you got into it all. I was gonna ask some more specifics about it. [00:17:00] So No, you did great. You went straight from what it is to actually, how it impacts, how it’s good, how it’s bad.

Uh, so you covered the whole thing. It was great. I love it. Thank you so much for that.

Lisa Johnson: Yeah, you’re welcome

Brent Dowlen: guys. We have been just kind of teeing up the conversation so you understand what is in the conversation today, what all we’re covering, what all we’re talking about, and the next couple questions I’m gonna ask Lisa about, we’re gonna actually look at some of the insights around actually having to go to court and what happens when you get into this situation.

Uh, some of the things that she can help you understand there, if it looks like you are heading in this direction or if you’ve experienced this. Uh, and then we’ve got some other stuff we’re gonna dig into later, but. This is the direction we’re going is what’s actually happens in and around the court.

Lisa, from your coaching and support groups, what patterns of legal [00:18:00] abuse do you see? Narcissistic abuse of exes or whatever use, and how should the other parent kind of anticipate that coming?

Lisa Johnson: Okay, so if you’re dealing with someone who’s an active addict. Or has some kind of personality disorder. Um, if you’re dealing with someone who is hiding assets, I like to say they think, well, what’s mine is mine and what’s yours is mine too.

Somebody who’s very entitled. Um, there’s, there’s different indicators of what we call high conflict divorce or separation because like half our clients have never been married. So understanding those factors is really important. Um, we, we actually have a quiz on our website called the Toxic Relationship Quiz.

Just if you’re, because one in two people in abusive relationships don’t even realize it. So I think first it starts with like. Hmm. Am I with someone who is probably not healthy and may uh, act very differently [00:19:00] as we’re separating? Because in normal divorce, which is most divorces, let’s say 85 to 90%, there’s anger in the beginning and usually four to six months in, people settle down.

They start realizing the bills are really high and they wanna, they’re like, let’s figure it out and kind of do what’s best for our kids and move on with our lives. High conflict is the opposite. So understanding if you’re dealing with, like I said, an active addict or so, again, not someone in recovery that’s completely different, but somebody who’s not in their right mind to make good decisions, whose anger does not subside, you have to approach it differently because that kind of person wants the opposite of moving on.

They wanna engage with you. And we often say that once they don’t have the day-to-day engagement, like you’re not in the same physical space, they’re limited to three things, money. Kids and the court and money in the court go hand in hand. And like we’ve been talking about, kids are the most heartbreaking and painful and last the longest.

So in terms of [00:20:00] legal abuse or we also, it’s a form of post-separation abuse. It’s a way to still kind of dominate you and have that power and control. So there’s two types of legal abuse. One is, um. What we call vexatious litigation or frivolous litigation, and that’s where you basically are dealing with a terrorist who is constantly filing motions against you to change custody, change the amount of money in terms of support where it’s unjustified, but basically terrorizing you, where you have to keep giving up your, you’re spending money on le lawyers and legal fees.

You’re having to take time off from work to deal with all of these motions. Your attention is, uh, not focused anymore. You can’t parent, you can’t even think straight. There’s this feeling of overwhelm and dread of like. What is the next thing that’s gonna happen? Like your life is completely out of control.

And that’s what a lot of our clients deal with for years and, and it is really, really important to get support. So vexatious are frivolous [00:21:00] litigation. It’s just like they are bullying you and using the legal system to do it. Then the other side is what I dealt with my, with my case for, for those, well my divorce took a year and cost a hundred thousand dollars that I’m gonna be paying back forever.

But the whole case for me took about 10 years. And my lawyer was so smart because at the very beginning of the process during our first consult, he was like, yours is gonna be one of the bad ones. And I interviewed him later before I, we did our book and he gave me like a number of factors that he never really organized that I did.

’cause I was like that, you know, these are really important to know, but. At the end of the year of the divorce, he also said, your ex is not going to comply with your agreement, because we actually settled two weeks before the year of trial in my stated, you have a year to try to work it out. So we had just settled and he said.

He, he’s not gonna comply. You’re gonna, you’re not gonna be able to afford me because he’s gonna continue to financially decimate you. So you’re gonna have to go what’s called pro [00:22:00] se or represent yourself. And I’ll be here in the background, but I’m telling you like, we’ll have to find you some kind of paralegal or something, but you need to start developing a paper trail right now because you are going to be back in court.

And it was such smart advice. And so he gave me some ideas on how to start developing a paper trail for my particular case. And I spent the next year and few months building my case, and then I went back. And then I spent the next seven and a half years in court representing myself for through about a hundred court appearances in two states and saved well over a million dollars.

But it basically consumed my life. And so that’s the other type of legal abuse where someone is not complying with a court order or an agreement, and then the burden is on the other person to keep taking them back to court. And it’s the same thing. If I weren’t representing myself, I’m spending money on lawyers.

I’m like, what’s go? You know, I need, everything is on me. And one of the hardest things to get in our legal system, especially in this country, but in a lot [00:23:00] of other places throughout the world, is enforcement. And so it’s so maddening to. To go to a system for relief, the justice system, and have it make things worse because the longer things are delayed and the lack of enforcement basically emboldens abusers to keep getting away with their bad behavior.

And it’s so frustrating. And there’s really three overwhelming emotions that people dealing with legal abuse feel. And this is what I felt for all of you those years. Every single day I’d wake up and I would feel rage because it’s, I’m so angry, it wasn’t even at my ex anymore. It was at the system for allowing this to happen ’cause it was so unfair, which is the next feeling, which was a sense of injustice.

It’s like, how can this be possible? You know, I’m doing everything right. I haven’t done anything wrong, or I, I haven’t made these significant mistakes and this person is still getting away with it. And then the third emotion is this sense of despair of like, [00:24:00] it’s never gonna get better. How am I gonna continue living my life like this?

Especially in cases with kids when someone’s been falsely accused of all kinds of abuse that they never have done. You can imagine what I’m talking about. And, and it’s like the ball is rolling and then their, their kids are taken away and there’s no proof. And it’s just like, how, how can this be my life?

And so somebody living with this, these feelings every single day is also very, very isolated. Um, they are feeling lots of big emotions that can make for very poor presentation with the professionals because they have a right to feel this way, but they have to learn how to present to evaluators and to people who are officers of the court so that they don’t make it worse for themselves and end up looking like the crazy people that their ex has accused ’em of being because of how they feel.

So I’m gonna pause. I know I’m going on and on about everything with legal abuse, but of course you can see I’m very passionate about this [00:25:00] topic.

Brent Dowlen: No, I, I love it. And honestly, I’m pretty sure we could probably go for four or five hours that that was the hardest part. Planning the show is like, I’m not sure I, I record long enough to cover everything I wanna cover today.

Uh, actually, you know, what you rolled right into kind of the next topic in that I want to talk about anyways is how should a targeted parent work with custody evaluators or therapists or whoever the court is throwing in their path to make sure they’re not mislabeled as high conflict themselves.

Lisa Johnson: It’s such an excellent question as one that people should be asking themselves because the, in the, the intuitive nature of people in these situations is to be like, I’m documenting everything and I’m gonna go into an evaluator with my binders of all my ex’s bad behavior, and I’m prove to to them how abusive my ex is and show, show everybody how they’re wrong and I’m [00:26:00] right.

And this is so awful and so unfair. That is the worst thing that you can do, even though it feels like that’s the reason you’re there. Right? And the reason why is because there’s something called custody factors or what’s also known as best interest factors. And one of the top ones is one that I mentioned earlier, which parent is likely to support the children’s relationship with the other parent.

So. If your ex has been undermining doing the opposite and you come in and you’re so angry and you’re talking about how your ex is so bad, you’re actually going against that value even though you have a a right to feel that way. So we have to package the narrative in a way where we do something called an inquisitorial approach, where you’re basically expressing confusion or surprise by reporting the facts of what have happened based on the alienation factors and the best interest factors.

Of course, this is what we do in our coaching that’s like way too much to get into now, but build a narrative around what your ex has done to [00:27:00] undermine your relationship with your child and what you think might be the solution. So we always want our clients to be proactive problem solvers, not to go in there furious out of control, even though again, you have the right to feel that way and you need to get that out.

But not with a custody evaluator. Their job is to figure. What would be best for your child in terms of where they’re gonna live, who’s gonna make legal decisions? So if you come in like a mad person, you are harming yourself. And that’s why it’s so important to work with professionals who can help you understand the way that the system works and how you have to operate and conduct yourself within that system to have a better chance of success.

Because so many people meet us after they’ve messed up, and then we have to do what we call image rehabilitation. How do I make myself likable again so that I can, I’m credible because keep in mind that people like our exes. Are getting off on this. They love [00:28:00] manipulating others and going to these high levels where you’re manipulating court, um, professionals, you’re manipulating doctors, you’re reporting things that are fake and people are believing it.

They love it. They love the stage, they love the audience. And our people are traumatized and a mess. And they’re, because they’re so scared about what’s happening to them, what’s happening to their children, and so they come off as crazy, um, which basically fits their ex’s narrative. So it’s so presentation, proper presentation is so important.

It is something you can learn. It is not something you should use your intuition on how you should go into an evaluation. And unfortunately, many people meet us after they’ve already met the evaluator and been like, oh my gosh, I didn’t realize, like I just thought that this was someone I can unleash and, you know, and do like a data dump.

That’s not what these people are for.

Brent Dowlen: I, I have a kind of segue question here. Moving beyond this in the group you’ve [00:29:00] worked with, right. And I’m know you have a support group you still work with. Have you actually gotten to see farther down the line how the adult children who have been alienated, right.

Ha have you, have you seen

Lisa Johnson: Yes.

Brent Dowlen: The outcome, how, what they’re feeling at the end going, I wish my parent had done this differently or I had done. What’s your experience there?

Lisa Johnson: So, okay, so we don’t work with children. We only work with the parents,

Brent Dowlen: right.

Lisa Johnson: But some of our clients have been with us for years, even though they don’t have like anything happening in the court, which I’m so honored that they just love coming to the group because it is this amazing community and they make friends with each other and men and women in different parts of the world will like talk to each other outside of the group.

Um, but anyway, so. I’m thinking of one of our clients in particular, she has three children. She always asks everyone how old their kids are, but when we first met her, she, her oldest son had aged [00:30:00] out and had been living with his father for years and was completely alienated from her. Then she had another child who was on the cusp of going to off to college, like finishing high school, and then she had an, she has another child who’s like a tween, and she was heartbroken because she felt like her, her oldest was a lost cause because there was nothing she could do in the legal system.

And she, her biggest concern was, I’m gonna lose all three of my kids. Because her ex is very charismatic. He’s a public personality. They’re involved with the church, all, you know, all the typical stuff. Um, so being with her these past few years, uh, one of the things that we do in the group is we have something called like, um, the balloon man.

And you know, outside of use car dealerships, there’s those waving tube guys. So that’s our victory sign. And so we have a little miniature like waving balloon man. And when our clients come to the group and talk about little victories or progress, they get the [00:31:00] balloon, man. So this particular client has had a number of balloon men throughout the years, but one of the, some of the ones that she’s had very recently is her, her, I’ll just say her child has moved in with her.

After all of this, she found out that the texts and the awful messages that were coming through his phone for years that she believed were not actually written by him, they were written by his father, and, um, made her feel like, I mean, and that’s something that they do, is the parent will get ahold of the child’s phone or some kind of device and send terrible messages to the alienated parent, the target parent, to make them feel like the, the child hates them.

So she found out from her son when she finally had a chance to get some privacy with him. He completely apologized to her. He said he hadn’t written the written the things, the two of them have gone on vacation together. That’s just one particular story, but that’s why I think it is so important to have a community like, like ours, where people who we call our grizzled veterans, those who are further along, [00:32:00] can share with our babies, our people, much earlier in the process.

What has happened for them. And keep cheering them on to be like, you cannot give up. You cannot give up. I was you, you. I felt the same way. Chris and Lisa remember me being like that. I was an absolute, well, we have a hashtag called from Puddle to ninja, so they’ll be like, I was an absolute puddle too. Oh my gosh.

Like it gets better. You have to stay the course. And again, legal abuse is something that goes on for years. And so we can’t put our lives on hold and be like, well, when it’s better than or when it’s over, I’ll deal with it. Like you still have to live your life in the meantime. And so again, having that support from people who have been through it.

And also we interview professionals all the time, like alienation, coaches, um. Who, or, or therapists who work with families whose kids have come back to them and they, they often say, you know, we have our own PO podcast, that the, it’s highly likely that your kids [00:33:00] will come back. They don’t just come back on their own though, but by the age of 26, 28 or when they go to college, when their brains develop that judgment, like they grow a frontal lobe, things really change.

And so just realizing that like, you ha you have to, there’s things you have to keep doing so that even if your child’s not talking to you right now, later, you’ll have proof that you were still making the effort. And one of my closest friends has two daughters who were. Turned, turned against her for eight years and I knew her through this process.

Had nothing to do with with our business. This is just in my real life, like someone that I’d been going to dance classes with for years, and she was absolutely heartbroken. She was socially withdrawn because she felt like everyone’s thinking she’s a bad mother because what kind of mother’s kids wouldn’t talk to her?

Two of her, you know, both her kids didn’t talk to her and last year. Both of her daughters ended up coming back to her. These are kids who have aged [00:34:00] outta the system and, and they let me interview them. They came over for Christmas, they let me in, not on Christmas. I didn’t interview them, them, but individually I was able to interview them.

Um, and it’s, those interviews have been so helpful for people in the situation to listen to, especially in hearing what it is like from the child’s perspective, because it’s not what you think. And one of the things that really stood out was during the interview with one of the daughters, I said, you know, your mom is a really close friend of mine.

And not to make you feel bad, but it was really hard to see her so heartbroken for such a long time because she felt like she, she must have been such a bad mother. And her daughter said she thought that she was a bad mother. I thought that I must have been the worst daughter in the world because I had a mother who didn’t even love me.

That’s what I believed. So. When you think your kids are just rejecting you and discarding you and they hate you, there is all kinds of [00:35:00] things that are going on in their heads, and there’s a lot of guilt and a lot of conflict. It’s not what you think. So please understand that your kids are also victims of domestic violence.

They don’t even have the adult filters that you have. They’re dealing with stuff. They’re helpless, they’re dependent on your ex. You got away, they haven’t yet. So there’s so many things to do to, to kind of stay the course. But again, you need support from people and you need cheerleaders saying like, and sharing their stories about like, my kid came back, or, you know it, and it’s not easy.

Once they come back, it’s still a bumpy ride. But again, like those, those stories of hope are imperative.

Brent Dowlen: And guys, if that’s hitting a cord for you, Lisa’s podcast has a been there Got out podcast. We’ll make sure there are links in the show notes and the description and on the webpage for all of her contact information, but she’s got those stories on there.

If this is really [00:36:00] ringing a bell, guys, I highly encourage you to jump over and start listening to her podcast to get some more insights, some more ideas. Now, Lisa, I love that you started talking about actions because one of the things we always try and do is in the show is move men towards actual advice and ideas of what they can do in their situation.

So I wanna move towards that direction now. And so let me ask you first, 30 day playbook. If you suspect that your spouse is starting to work alienation against you, right? You haven’t necessarily split off, but you, you can start to feel this coming. There’s a change and you think your spouse is starting to try and alienate your children.

What are the first five steps to take and five things to avoid at home with the school, with council documentation, the first 30 day playbook, when we feel this is coming, where do we go?

Lisa Johnson: Oh my gosh. Five things to do, five things to avoid. And so [00:37:00] I’m like, ah, these loaded questions. All right. Lemme see what I can do.

I don’t know if I’m gonna think of five for each, but I’m gonna try. Okay. So if you sense it happening, um, it’s really important to start trying to spend time with your kid while you’re still around them, if possible. Where they, so I, I interviewed a therapist who said that your kids at any age are almost like, this is my, my little note to it.

To me it’s like there’s little narcissists. They want two things more than anything, control and attention. So if you can spend 10 minutes, whenever you have a chance to get down on their level, whatever age they are, and to be like. You know, I see you’re really interested in this. Can you teach me about it?

Can you show me, you know, where you are really, really focused? Even if it’s video games and you hate video games, do it because they need attention from you. This is something that your ex is not capable of, so you need to make the effort on a [00:38:00] regular basis to start trying to connect with the kids so that if it’s getting, you know, if they’re getting these messages, they’re developing their own memories with you.

To preserve it. So you gotta, this is something that has to start like from as early as possible to start trying to create memories with your child. You also wanna give them the opportunity to have agency in their lives where you say, let’s figure out something. How about you plan it? It doesn’t have to be some fancy, like, vacation somewhere.

It can be like, oh, next weekend there’s like some renaissance festival. You know, what do you think? Or, um, you know, you wanna take a day trip somewhere, take ’em to the library. You wanna look at this, but let’s get, let’s get excited, but I need you to help me. Like, they need to feel like they’re in charge again.

They need to feel like they can make decisions because in with their other parent, that other parent is making the decisions for them. So that’s two. Another thing is, um, helping them develop critical thinking skills. So when you, if you [00:39:00] are able to go to the supermarket, read, watch a movie with them, talk to ’em about it, like what are, I used to be a high school English teacher and one of my favorite things to teach was.

Conflict where you identify like man versus man, man versus nature, man versus self. So there’s ways to do it, not like an English teacher, but you look at something and you say, wow, like what did you think about how that person handled the situation? If you can find things, whether it’s little children, books that involve conflict or making a hard decision, like encourage them to talk about what they would do in situations like this.

Talk about, so this is number four, talk about what you did in situations my kids love and many kids love hearing about what their parents’ lives when their, they were they, their age, especially when you made mistakes and messed up, like they love hearing stories. Storytelling is really, really important.

Um, and then also just in terms of, I’m gonna use my number five for part of your other [00:40:00] question with the school. If you start noticing there’s something going on, um, therapy is a little bit tricky. You can try to get your kid into therapy and try to do therapy together maybe. But if you’re dealing with one of those difficult exes, that’s hard.

You can talk to the, your kid’s guidance counselor if they’re not in preschool, um, and they’re in, you know, in public school. Try to get ahold of the guidance counselor, meet one-to-one if possible, and say, we’re experiencing some issues, you know, a conflict in the home. I’m worried about my kid. Are there any resources you can recommend for me?

And, um, just please keep an eye on my kid. And you don’t, they don’t require the other parents, um, permission for anything like that. So those are five things you can do. And I forgot the other part of the question.

Brent Dowlen: No worries. It was a long question what

Lisa Johnson: it was. You’re like, these stacked questions

Brent Dowlen: I do because everything there, there’s always.

I hate yes or no answers. ’cause they, they’re [00:41:00] never actually telling the story, so,

Lisa Johnson: well, you know, I’m not giving you yes or no, no. I’m giving you like a long-winded an answers.

Brent Dowlen: I love it though that, that’s so important because we’re, we’re equipping guys who are in those situations where they feel like they’re just drowning trying to figure this out on their own.

So, no, I love the answers. They’re great. What are four or five things they should avoid in this situation?

Lisa Johnson: Avoid believing what your ex, when they say, um, you know what, we’re gonna just, just sign right here and we’re still gonna get together and everything’s gonna be wonderful and we can still be a family.

Like, be very careful with things like that. Um, avoid. Jumping into filing, okay? Avoid, avoid hiring a pit bull attorney. You don’t wanna have an attorney who, um, is going to inflame the conflict because that’s gonna cost you a lot of money and a lot of grief. [00:42:00] So understand. So this is number three.

Understand that high conflict cases are very different from normal divorce. And lawyers are trained in logic and most lawyers are very inexperienced. With cases like these, they have to be handled delicately. They, uh, there’s gonna be a lot of negotiations involved. And so you don’t wanna start off with filing motions and jumping into the legal system because that is just gonna explode and cost you tons of money.

So. I think the, in terms of avoiding the pit bull attorney, I’m just gonna add a suggestion is to, um, not that collaborative divorce works all the time, but we always want you to, um, alright, so I will, I’ll, I’ll change back to the negative, avoid litigation as much as possible and understand that there’s ways to learn strategic communication.

This is what we teach more than anything, to start negotiating with your ex and being [00:43:00] very child-centric as much as possible. Um, also understand that you have a certain amount of leverage. Don’t think that somebody, alright, so here’s another, no, don’t listen to what we call bar stool counsel. So there’s gonna be all kinds of people that tell you, this is what we did in my divorce and you need to do this like.

Just don’t, because your situation is very d everyone’s situation is, is different. So you need to, you be very careful about the people you talk to. Oh, here’s one more thing. So this is maybe number six. No doom scrolling. Stop looking on social media for all the awful stories about people who lost their kids and you know, somebody killed somebody in Nightmare in Family court and bias against Men or whatever.

Like it’s, it’s only gonna affect you and harm your case. Start listening to things like, or looking at content like Upworthy or global positive news, like all the fluffy, like kittens and puppies and happy moments because you [00:44:00] need to start, um, deal getting more like oxytocin, like the pleasure hormone and not the cortisol that’s gonna really affect you.

’cause it’s, believe me, it’s gonna impact everything. Your parenting, your case, you need to do things that kind of balance. You as much as possible and, um, and not have you like feeling isolated, alone, miserable and defeatist.

Brent Dowlen: You, you touched on something that I, I think we need to spend at least a few minutes on because in my experience with some of the guys I know who have been in some of these scenarios with very high conflict, divorce and being alienated and friends is always a complicated subject, right?

Because you may have been married for a few years, or you may have been together for a few years, your friend circles, you are, family circles are very overlapping and people feel like they have to pick sides. Often [00:45:00] the person is, if they’re poisoning your kids against you, they’re certainly poisoning those circles against you.

Mm-hmm. So how can, like faith communities, schools and friends. What are some safe support techniques that can’t be necessarily turned against you later, uh, in litigation proceedings and stuff like that? Right? Because once this starts, you have to make sure you’re not setting yourself up for something worse, right?

Uh,

Lisa Johnson: yeah. So you don’t wanna, um, you don’t wanna like get involved with any militant groups either way, like father’s rights, mother’s rights. It just, it’s like a bad look. Don’t post stuff on like social media, don’t post stuff. Like, everything has a digital footprint, so I know everybody wants to like, share.

That will really harm your. Like, believe me, opposing counsel, and I’ve interviewed many lawyers, they mine the [00:46:00] internet. They mine social media for comments that they can use to show how you’re inflammatory and you’re not gonna support the child’s relationship because look what you’re doing. You’re attacking like, and kids should be shielded from any conflict.

So you don’t wanna be making those mistakes. Now, the friend and family thing, like we have so many clients who have been isolated from their own families whose exes have aligned with their own families or who, who come from toxic families of origin, which kind of compounds. This sense of like, I must be such a loser because even my own family, like I don’t have anyone to turn to.

And that’s why it’s important to find support groups. Um, you know, we have our legal abuse support group. There’s communities. Our friend Charlie McCready is a, an alienation coach in the uk. He started a whole sanctuary for alienated parents. There’s, there’s different groups, but you wanna make sure that, ’cause in the, in the abuse world, there’s lots of abusers who are preying on vulnerable targets.[00:47:00]

So you need to make sure, just like with a therapist, that you do your research and you feel like you have a rapport and it makes you feel comfortable and not worse. After participating in whatever support group or or group that you’re in, you need to feel good, whether it’s in person or not, but be ready to, to be disappointed and to lose some of these relationships because false allegations, horrible, false allegations are very, very common.

In these kinds of cases, especially against men. There’s an attorney, former sheriff and child protective services worker in Colorado named Evan Fair actually, um, who we did a couple of interviews with and she said, now is the most dangerous time for men and stepfathers because of all of the Post Me Too stuff.

So it’s almost like, just expect that it’s gonna happen and figure out like what you can do and get the support, um, from [00:48:00] people who might not necessarily be in your physical community, but that, you know, like there’s people I can talk to. There’s so many people going through stuff like this. It feels like you’re the only one.

You feel like your story is so crazy. We get calls like every single day, like, you’re not gonna believe this. And then they go, oh my gosh. Like, I feel so much better because you believe me, of course. Because that’s all we deal with. So you wanna connect with people and professionals who have lived it, because those are, those are your people.

I know it’s, it’s really scary when this stuff starts to happen, but there are people out there who see this all the time, who believe you, who can help get you through this. So just know that I, you know, I know it, it feels like the worst thing that ever could happen, and it is, but you will get through this, but you absolutely need support.

And I know a lot of people who might be listening are very successful and responsible, and they’re the ones who are like, I could do everything myself. I’ve been doing everything myself. I’m tough. I like, I’m strong. [00:49:00] I shouldn’t have to ask for help. You need to ask for help if not for yourself. For your children because the more self-regulated you are, the better chance you have of protecting yourself now and in the future from the relationship being ruined.

Because if your emotions are coming out, your kids are feeling like the Ang, like you ca, you need that support again to be as, as calm as possible. So you’re just like, you know what? With your kids, like, I’m good. I can deal with all the adult stuff. I love you. All I care about is my relationship with you.

I want us to have fun and I don’t want you to worry about any of this other stuff. No matter what, I’m gonna be here for you and you don’t need to take care of me emotionally. It’s gonna be okay.

Brent Dowlen: Lisa, I think we’re barely scratching the surface in all this, and I wanted to take a second and ask you, you, this is your world.

You live in this, you work with people who are trapped in this, people who are suffering in this situation. I will [00:50:00] readily admit to our listeners, I, I spent a lot of time googling and chat GBT and trying to find the right questions to ask to give them the most benefit from this conversation with you.

But you know, this better than anything I could possibly look up. Is there something that I should ask you or you think you should share that will help our listeners that I just have missed so far?

Lisa Johnson: I, I think you’ve been really good and I think I’ve given really long-winded answers. I think the main thing is people always say, how am I going to get through this?

How, and, and it’s like what I just was saying, you’re gonna get through it with support. You’re gonna get through it by being with people who are going through it and have been through it and sharing those success stories. You’re gonna keep. Doing the work, you’re gonna get therapy. You’re gonna realize that it, that the world is unfair, but that this is not a life sentence.

And that you do have [00:51:00] agency over your, your own life. And a lot of times as kids get older, they see who’s who and the tables do turn. It just hasn’t happened yet. So actually that’s my little tip. When I was going through all this crap with my ex in court and I was so frustrated and angry and feeling that sense of injustice, I remember going to my daughter’s therapist and being like, I don’t, I don’t know how I can live like this.

Like this is, this is never, never ending. Like it’s consuming my life. I’m miserable. Like I, I’m, I have my, my happy moments, but it’s just so heavy on me all the time. And she said, well, what are you, like, what is the thing that’s that’s you’re worried about the most? Like, what is the thing? And I said, I just feel like.

The judge is never gonna hear my story. Like they’re, I’m, I’m never gonna get a chance to talk. And she said, how about we try to reframe it instead of like, the judge is never going to hear me. How about we say it as [00:52:00] the judge hasn’t heard my story yet and that word yet saved me? And that’s the word that we use with a lot of our clients is like, it hasn’t happened yet.

It feels like it’s never gonna happen. It just hasn’t happened yet. So if you can just keep remembering that word yet. It hasn’t happened yet. My kid hasn’t come back to me yet. Justice hasn’t been served yet. It will happen. And again, this is coming from someone who spent a decade in the legal system. It was hard.

That doesn’t even include the 20 years with my ex. Like we won’t even get into that. But you will get through this. It’s just gonna take some time and a lot of work. But make sure you get some support.

Brent Dowlen: Lisa, I wanna take a couple minutes here and I would love for you to share some of your resources because this is something that you can help men with that I absolutely am not equipped to help with.

I know that you guys have built up several resources. You’ve talked about your support group. I know you [00:53:00] released a book recently, so share some of your resources. Tell the guys what you have available if they’re listening and going, I need to look into this more, I need to go check out what else she’s doing.

Lisa Johnson: Okay. So, um, so our book, um, is called, it’s not out yet as we’re having this conversation. It might be, but, um, by the time you know it, this, this conversation goes public, but it’s called When Your Ex Turns The Kids Against You. And it’s, um, an in, in-depth, uh, exploration of what you can do legally and what you can especially do outside the legal system.

If your ex has turned the kids against you. Um, I have interviewed dozens and dozens of professionals, uh, in this area. And I think in the book there’s like, I counted, there’s like 52 plus people talking about all kinds of things related to this topic. We’re also building, um, a course on this, the same name.

So we have a [00:54:00] series of courses called From Fear to Fierce in Family Court. So the course on this topic, oh my gosh, it’s like, I feel like it’s like 20 something hours so far. I’m still working on it. We’re recording for that. That’s gonna be extensive and we’re gonna do some group coaching with it because it is such a long process.

Um, we also have a course, um, as part of that Fear to Fierce thing, it’s called How to Communicate with Your Ex Without Destroying Your Case or Losing Your Mind. Strategic communication is the basis of everything. It is so important to learn how to properly communicate with your ex, but always for that invisible audience.

’cause we know that there’s gonna be other eyes on this case. So, like I said before about proper presentation, that’s all about how you write. And AI cannot do it for you because AI triggers personality disordered individuals, and it sounds fake as of now. So there’s ways you can do it, but more importantly, you have to learn to deal with your [00:55:00] PTSD and learning how to communicate properly.

Is confronting the bully and that is the number one way to stop being so scared of them. So there’s things that you can learn. It’s very healing to learn proper communication with your ex. We also have our first book, it’s called um, been There, got Out Toxic Relationships, high Conflict Divorce, and How to Stay Sane Under Insane Circumstances.

That gets a lot into the legal abuse stuff. Our website has been there. Got out.com. We do free at this moment discovery zoom sessions with people for like half an hour where we have a conversation with Chris and I and figure out what’s going on and we explicitly get into if and how we can help and how we can do that.

Um. Let’s see, what else? Um, we have our weekly legal abuse support group, like I talked about. I just love, um, that’s one of our client perks and we have our podcast. Been there, got out, we have our YouTube channel. We have a big, um, presence on social media, especially Instagram. Just been there, got [00:56:00] out. So it’s just Chris and I, we are excellent at answering and, um, we really understand a lot of the things that you’re going through.

And if we don’t, we always say our content is driven by our clients and our community. We love going and finding professionals who can help you. So, um, definitely get in touch if you’re dealing with something like this.

Brent Dowlen: We covered that. Covered that. I’m crossing off things off the list to make sure, because I want them to find you. Uh, I, one of my favorite things about doing this show. Is, I love to connect my audience with people who can help them with things that are outside of my scope of work, right? Um, this is not, I’ve been blessed.

My wife and I have been married for 24 years. She loves me. I don’t know why. I’ve never understood it. She does

Lisa Johnson: congratulations.

Brent Dowlen: And so I, I, my heart’s aches because I have friends who are [00:57:00] in those scenarios and it’s like, I, I can’t relate to them. I don’t know, like, as a friend, you’re like, you wanna say something?

But I don’t know what to say. I, I know I can’t make it better.

Lisa Johnson: Just, just listen and say that. Just say that. Say, I am here to just listen to you. I can’t make, imagine if they had cancer or something. There’s nothing you can do about it, but you can just say, I’m here. I’m here for you. I’m listening. I know this is complex.

I know. I don’t understand it. Tell me what you need from me. That is so helpful for people in this situation just to feel like, ’cause they, they feel like they don’t have anybody who understands it. So just to acknowledge that you don’t be like, I’m gonna sit here with you through this. That’s, that’s bravery.

That’s a true friend.

Brent Dowlen: Guys, if you are like me and are totally lost, that, that’s solid gold right there because that’s, we’re not always good about that as guys, [00:58:00] but really be a brother like you, you can step up and just be there for your brother. We’ve talked about all kinds of things, Lisa, and like I said, I, I knew when I was planning this episode, I was like, we could go for hours and hours.

I know. Or I could just say, Hey, go listen to her podcast and we’ll save the time. But guys, if you know somebody who is in this kind of situation and we all do, please point them towards the show. Share this with them. As a starting point to give them somewhere to go and to let them know they’re not alone.

There are people out there that they consult, that they can consult with, they can talk to. Lisa. Rep is out. If the guy’s listening to her, nothing else today, what do you want them to hear?

Lisa Johnson: Uh, you, you have a very good chance of reconnecting with your child. Just know that it feels hopeless, but you have a [00:59:00] very good chance and there’s a lot you can do, even though it feels like your ex is getting away with it.

They don’t necessarily, this doesn’t necessarily last forever and your child’s gonna be an adult a lot longer. When they’re a child, they’re not gonna be this dependent on the other person. Things usually train drastically once they move away or go off to college or wherever they go. So just realize if they are not yet adults or even if they’re young adults, you still have a really, really good chance.

But do not give up on your kids. And don’t forget that they’re a victim too, and it’s okay to be really angry with them and be really hurt, like let yourself feel bad and then go get some support.

Brent Dowlen: Guys, for Lisa and myself, thanks for hanging out with us on the conversation. Be better tomorrow because what you do today and we’ll see on the next one.

Lisa Johnson: The Driven to Thrive broadcast, purpose, growth, and lasting

Brent Dowlen: impact for men, helping men go from living to thriving. Purpose-filled intentional lives. [01:00:00] Affiliate disclaimer, my pillow like any other Source cycles, promos because of the extended lifecycle of a podcast. The immediate promotion that you heard me in this episode may no longer be, in fact, when you hear it, because you can be hearing this five years from I recorded it.

However, as long as my pillow is a sponsor of. Thrive broadcast. Our show, our promo code Thrive is always good for up to 80% off your order and free shipping on orders over five no matter what you hear in this episode. As far as the current promo, thrive is always good as long as my pillows sponsor the show for up to 80% off your order free.