The Stories We Tell Our Kids (and Ourselves) The Hero’s Journey of Dad Life

Brent Dowlen: [00:00:00] Max. Every dad has that incredible story that just, you talk about being a dad, it just pops into mind. What is your favorite dad story?

Max Shippee: My favorite dad story is, this is a great one. It’s my second daughter. Um, she was, she probably was four at the time. Three or four. And it was a classic like tea party thing, right?

We’re sitting around the little table and she had this stuffed animals and we had the tea and the honey and the milk, and it was just like every tea party you’ve ever seen, you know what I mean? Every kid does all the time, right? And we’re sitting there and I’m thinking to myself, this is really like, I’m, I’m totally in the moment.

I’m like, this is time with my daughter. Like, I’m gonna sit here, you know, sit here, don’t think you gotta be somewhere else. And I’m like, it’s really nice. So I turned around and I said, you know, ma man, I’m like, daddy’s, daddy’s having a lot of fun, daddy, that daddy’s having a really good time right now.

You know, I’m just trying to like, make a moment with her, you know? And she turns her eyes get really big and she’s like, is a pretty fucking good daddy.

And I’m like, [00:01:00] you, you can’t, you can’t laugh, right? Because then they got you and they know that there’s something to it, you know? I’m not gonna scold her. You know what I mean? Like, it’s the cutest moment ever. I just took a breath. I was like, yeah, baby, it’s pretty fucking good. You know? It’s like, it’s, it’s exactly what it is, you know?

So it’s one of those moments where it’s like you’re expecting kind of one thing and the other thing comes outta left field and it’s just so perfect. You’re giggling inside, but you can’t quite, you know, give it all out. So that is one of my absolute favorite stories. Just kids’ tea party and it’s pretty fucking good.

That’s,

how old was she? I gotta ask how old?

She’s three, four. You know, like when they were little, little, you know, and they do that sometimes, you know? Oh yeah. Like they do that sometimes where, you know, they hear you say something like, ah, that’s a piece of shit. Or, you know, some other thing, or knock it off, and all of a sudden it comes out of ’em in the perfect context.

At the perfect time, but it’s just, when it comes outta them, you’re like, oh, you know, and of course, me [00:02:00] and my wife had a discussion after I told her we were both giggling about it, and I was like, it’s probably my fault. And she goes, that’s probably my fault. You know, like, ’cause you’re both letting stuff slide and you haven’t realized yet.

You gotta edit a little more, you know? Mm-hmm. When you’re around the kids. So, but yeah, it’s just a great one to show that, like, okay, maybe I’m not the awesome parent, I thought, but still, it was a great little moment. So that’s one of my absolute favorite stories about being a dad.

Oh, that’s

Brent Dowlen: awesome. I I, I had some friends who did not take it well.

Uh, after our kids were born, once they got to about six, nine months old, I, I started putting restrictions on language in the house,

Max Shippee: Uhhuh,

Brent Dowlen: because I, I’ve worked with kids for so many years over my lifetime, and I knew how quickly they started picking things up. I was like, so I was like, I actually had one friend, like, she stopped coming over because she’s like, I’m an adult.

I can say whatever I want, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I was like, yeah, you’re young adult, that you have that attitude, but. And that was the whole thing. She was a young adult and she was like, well, I can say whatever I want now. I’m an adult. I don’t have to be sensitive like you do at my [00:03:00] house.

Yeah, well you do.

My little ones are gonna pick that shit up. That’s why.

Right.

Max Shippee: You know?

Brent Dowlen: Oh yeah. They pick that stuff up so, so quick. Wow. That’s, that’s awesome. That may be one of the best tea party stories I’ve ever heard.

Max Shippee: Oh, yeah. You know, and especially you can picture it like you’re all set up. You’re just like, oh yeah, this is, I’m being an awesome dad.

You’re patting yourself on the back. You’re like, this is awesome. And

Brent Dowlen: then

Max Shippee: wham,

Brent Dowlen: oh man. Damn it. I love it.

Well, that was a great dad story guys. I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did. And this episode of the Dad Hat Shana, his podcast, I sit down with Mac Shippee, an accomplished author, actor, and devoted father.

We delve deep into the profound influence of narratives in fatherhood, in life. Both our, our stories that we tell ourselves and those we impart our children. We even explored some of the essence of masculinity and how storytelling has affected that. We unpack how these tales shape our perspectives in life and the way we go about doing everything we know [00:04:00] Far from mere storytelling.

Though these narratives become the blueprints for our roles as dads guiding us through the complexities of parenthood and our journeys of personal growth has meant our brain processes, things in the frame of story work, and sometimes we don’t understand the impact of those stories. We tell ourselves every day how they’re affecting us, how they’re affecting our children, and how they shape our lives every moment of every decision of every day.

It’s a great conversation, max and I had a great time recording this. Guys. I hope you enjoy it. We’re gonna jump to our sponsors real quick, then we’ll dive right into this. Gents, I sleep on MyPillow Giza sheets. I sleep on my pillow. I have MyPillow body pillows. I have MyPillow towels. My wife even has MyPillow slippers.

We’re a MyPillow household and I wouldn’t recommend something to you that I don’t use in my life every day. We’re proud to have Mike Lindell a MyPillow sponsored the show. [00:05:00] You go to mypillow.com, you use promo code TFM, super complicated, right? That’s our parent company, the Fallible Man Code TFM for up to 80% off your order, and free shipping on over anything over $75.

Just for our listeners, MyPillow is also running all kinds of promotions all the time that you can take great advantage of. I love MyPillow, guys. I love having them as sponsored for the show and make great American products for great Americans, and they help keep us on the air. So thank you in advance for shopping with MyPillow, supporting an American company and supporting your favorite podcast so we can keep bringing you shows just like this one.

Buckle in this show with Max Shippee is a lot of fun. Guys, we had a lot of fun recording it. I guarantee you’re gonna get a lot out of it. Let’s get back to it.

Welcome to the Dad Hatch Shenanigans podcast, the Unfiltered Truth about being a dad, real dads real stories, unfiltered conversations about fatherhood. [00:06:00] I’m your host, Brent Dowlen, and today my guest is author, actor and father Max Shippee. Max, welcome to the show.

Max Shippee: Thanks so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

Kind of LA last minute notice, but this is a great way to spend a Tuesday for sure,

Brent Dowlen: right? Uh, when you, when you get to do the things you enjoy, it makes life a whole lot easier.

Max Shippee: Sure does.

Brent Dowlen: Now, now Max, you, I was looking through your bio and you have had a life, man. You have moved and lived and done things.

Yeah. So before we get rolling into this, give us a little, a little context. I don’t do big introductions. Oh, who is Matt Ship?

Sure. Yeah.

Max Shippee: No, I grew up in the, I’ll start with the, you know, you said where the appropriate, this is where I grew up. I grew up in Maine. Okay. Um, that’s where I’m originally from. Um, and as far as how that ties back to, to dad hood, like we go back there every summer.

My parents still have a place there and it’s, it’s, you know, I grew up in the middle of the woods, half an hour from the Canadian border, you know, fishing and hunting and, and you know, making fires in the woods when you shouldn’t be. And, you know, [00:07:00] classic, classic country boy stuff. And there’s still a, a big part of me that wants my kids to have that.

So for two weeks we go back to Maine in the summer and we, you know, we’re very fortunate. My parents still have the place. And, and it’s one of those things where we take advantage of it fully. And, um, I am, I’m the oldest of four kids, so all of us try to make it so we overlap. So there’s cousins and there’s all kinds of fun.

So, um, so that’s, that’s where I started. I started there actually. And my mom is a creative, she’s a dance teacher. My dad’s an eye doctor, so he’s like, supports the creative, if you will. Um, so I grew up with that little bit of creative spark and that really stuck with me and so much so that I went to college for music and theater.

And then I bounced around quite a bit, like you mentioned. Um, I went to, uh, DC for a minute. I did a show there. Um, came to la did a show here, then went to Austin, Texas. Um, and just funny enough, studied acupuncture for a hot minute. Um, then ended up through a friend, ended up in Bali, Indonesia for a minute to work at a [00:08:00] scuba banana resort when I was young and didn’t have any kids.

Um, that was before Dad for sure. That was literally a moment like before dad, where I was like, I have no girlfriend, I have no kids. I’m 24. Like. Yeah, I’m gonna go do this thing ’cause when are you gonna do it again? You know? Um, then I came back and worked for quite a while, about four or five years in Vegas.

Um, on stage and on boats. I was at Phoenician Rowing Boats as a gole. I had an Italian accent in the whole nine yards. Um, then I met my wife, who was from Los Angeles at the time. So I moved out here to Los Angeles and since then I’ve been pretty successful in the acting world. Um, a lot, a lot of commercials.

Uh, had a run on a soap opera for a little while. I got to play The Bad Guy On, on the Young and The Restless for about 60 episodes. So that was super fun. And then during COVID, I decided, uh, you know, the, the acting thing wasn’t hopping anymore. So. I couldn’t keep the creativity in. As you, as you know, you have podcasts, that’s your creative outlet and the way you explore the world, you know, same thing for me is, is through story, you know?

So, um, so I had a story that [00:09:00] as Stephen King says, the good stories won’t leave you alone, and this one wouldn’t leave me alone. So I finally put it down a paper and, and, and wrote a book here. We’ll, we’ll do a little, a little plug in there. Right? So, um, so yeah. Um, that’s the two minutes or less version I guess.

Does that sound about right?

Brent Dowlen: No, I love it. And, and you’re so right about the opportunity to go to Bali. It’s like if you don’t take those moments when you have them.

Max Shippee: Yeah, right. Like one’s that gonna happen, you know? So yeah, I took it and it was great. I was there for, I guess seven, eight months or something like that.

Learned how to scuba dive at the scuba diving resort and just experienced another country, watched the sun come up on top of a volcano one day. You know what I mean? Just one of those things where. It was smart. A lot of us, when we’re young and dumb, we’d just be like, do you know, doodle around? But I’m, yeah, I think I made a pretty good, a pretty good play of it.

Probably should have spent more time thinking about the future, but, you know, whatcha gonna do about it now? So,

Brent Dowlen: oh,

there’s looking back, but it’s kind of pointless most of the time. You look back first [00:10:00] warm memories every now and then, but that’s about it. Yep.

Max Shippee: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So that’s how I got here.

So how many kids now?

And as far as the, sorry. As far as the dad thing, I’ve been a dad now for not to, not to keep going without the proper questions here, but No, you’re fine. Um, but, um, first kid, uh, was 2006, so we’re basically coming up on almost 20 years. So she just turned 19. Um, so I have three kids. I have a, a girl, girl and a boy.

So, um, the oldest one is in college. She just finished an internship on a, on a, on a film. She’s gonna study cinematography. Um, she’s great behind the camera. She’s wicked smart. Um, my second one, she’s about to be a senior. She just had a really good score on her a CT test, so she’s super excited about applying for college now.

And then my youngest is my son and he’s gonna be in, uh, a freshman in high school. And he’s a great drummer, he’s a great salsa dancer. He does partner dancing salsa style and he just like in the past two months, is now taller than me. So

Brent Dowlen: that’s a big moment. [00:11:00]

Max Shippee: Yeah, and, and also, but you know, I remind ’em like, I can still knock you down, buddy, just because you’re taller.

Like look at too. And all my kids are are pretty, are are pretty great. We have really, really, really good relationship with our kids. From the very beginning. We did a lot of reading and just education and how we were brought up. And not that my wife or I, either of us, Alice and I, not that anything was like super wrong with how we were brought up.

We both had pretty good childhoods, you know, but there’s always stuff you can do better, you know, so we kind of took that to heart and we, we always tried to choose connection over discipline. And the way that like, oh, the reason they’re acting up is ’cause they’re not connected probably. So lemme connect with them and then we can talk about or figure out what’s up.

And that seemed to work really, really well for us.

So, yeah.

Brent Dowlen: You know, it’s, it is funny how many people seem to think that a dad who’s trying to do better has to have had a, a problematic, uh, childhood, you know? Mm. I, I have, my mom still lives with us. Uh, my dad [00:12:00] passed a couple years ago.

Reel: Oh. And, uh,

Brent Dowlen: I, I had a great childhood.

Like, I, I have loving, dedicated parents who are active in my life and, you know, so important. Now in my children’s lives, I’m still trying to be a little bit better. And it’s a high bar. Like, I consider it a very high bar because I have great parents. It doesn’t mean I don’t cry and be. An even better parent.

Right?

Reel: Right.

Brent Dowlen: You don’t have to have a traumatic childhood to Right. Want to be the best dad you can be. And I think a lot of people that

Max Shippee: up Yeah.

It’s actually you almost, you almost have more of a responsibility if you had a good childhood to be able to like, don’t mess this up. Right. Right. Do at least that a bar’s pretty high.

Right. You’re like, okay, above the bar, just a little, okay, we’re good. You know?

Brent Dowlen: Right. I think dad’s, dad’s parents, parents in general, but especially dads, I don’t think there’s a real dad in the world who doesn’t want his children to [00:13:00] excel past him.

Max Shippee: Oh my God. Absolutely. Right. Absolutely.

Brent Dowlen: And we, we killers do that think all want for

Max Shippee: our kids.

Yeah. I mean that’s, that’s I think part of the reason why we can get frustrated with our kids is that, you know, especially my son sometimes, you know, I mean, uh, he, he, he works hard on the rest of it, but. Some days when he is gaming or whatever and he is kind of taking a day off. It’s just, I just sit there, I’m like, so much potential buddy.

You’re just 14. Like, you know, that’s, I think that’s the thing that gets us frustrated actually, is like, we see that, we see that you could be so much better. You could be so much better. You know? And once again, we we’re pretty good about all that kind of stuff. But still, you know, if he’s on there and chit chatting and whooping with his friends when he is trying to Minecraft something or what the heck he’s doing, it’s like, oh man, you should, even if you’re out just practicing your wheelies on your bike, that seems like a better, you know, use of your time.

But the, um, but we only downtime, so we, we try to be good about that. But I, I totally hear you. Where, especially as a father, you want your kids to do better than you. So much that [00:14:00] sometimes that’s the thing that actually makes you an annoying parent. Pain. Yeah, exactly.

Brent Dowlen: Absolute pain. Dude, dad, stop. You know, like,

Max Shippee: whatever, it’s,

Brent Dowlen: oh, yeah.

Well that, that’s that experience that comes through. Right. You, you’ve lived, however, how, how old are you? Can I ask?

Max Shippee: I’m 50. Yeah. I’m 50.

Brent Dowlen: You’re 50.

You’ve lived 50 years. That means you have 50 years of insights and experience Yeah. Compared to, right. And, and that’s the way it’s meant to work. But, so at our ages, we’re looking at our kids going, really?

You should try this. Well, let’s come on. Let’s, let’s do this. Let’s, uh, let, let’s not sit here and watch TV and let’s go do this. Right, right, right.

Max Shippee: They’re like, you probably should say you’re sorry. You know? Like, I can see this from both sides and I think that’s You’re off. But buddy Yeah. We, that, those are the times too of both my wife and I and dads especially are just like, yeah, you’re just like, I see what’s happening.

I [00:15:00] know how this is gonna go, and I’m trying to help you. If you just listen like, oh my God, and then a week later you’re like, I know it. I knew, I knew exactly how this was gonna play out, and here we’re, you know, whether it’s a test or a whatever, or a boyfriend, girlfriend or friendship or, you know, whatever the drama is of the day, you know?

Mm-hmm. So, yeah, I, uh, I, I relate to that for sure, for sure. Although I have used one of the things I discovered, which was really, really useful, um, not to give unsolicited advice on your show, mom, you’re, you’re, so that’s what my show it is. You, you, you have, you have the Red Hat. You should be giving the advice.

Um, the, uh, but what I discovered somewhere along the line, I think with our oldest, who is just sweetheart, is every so often I’d be like, Hey, look, I, I have to dad right now. Like, I have to be the dad, so can you just sit there for five minutes and let me dad? And she’d be like, okay. I’m like, it’s, it’s my job.

It’s what I have to do. And I know you’re like, just going out as an example. Like, you [00:16:00] gotta be home by 11 or midnight or whatever. I know you’re responsible. I know you’re not crazy. I know your friends aren’t crazy. I know you know all this stuff. You’re not doing drugs, you’re not being all that. I know that.

But if I still don’t say, watch out for this, don’t be stupid about that. You know what I mean? Yeah. If I still don’t say, don’t do dr, then I’m not being a dad. I’m not doing my job. Like I know you don’t do all these things, but it is my job as the dad to say all the dad things. So just be patient. And I know a lot this doesn’t apply, but I still gotta say it ’cause I’m the dad, you know?

And I use that every so often now where it’s like, Hey, look, just lemme be a dad for a second. You know? Okay. How much homework do you have and when did you think you’re gonna do it? Because now you wanna go out with your friends two nights or you wanna go see a movie? Like, I thought you had a big test, or, oh yeah.

Okay. I’m like, I’ve just been your dad. I’m not trying to be jackass. You know? And that seems to work pretty good because, you know, you, you, you inevitably compare yourself to, to other parents and stuff. And I’m like, okay, that seems, that seems to for, that seems to work. It seems to work, you know? [00:17:00] ’cause especially in the teenage years, you get that attitude.

They have it just, ugh. I mean, I get where it comes from. They’re like pushing, they’re like pushing away from the nest. Like I get that there’s some kind of natural thing there. Mm-hmm. That’s probably inherent in our DNA, that’s like, I wanna build my own life. I gotta get away, so I’m gonna be a jackass so you don’t miss me anymore.

You know? But man, some days you’re just like, Ooh. Yeah.

Brent Dowlen: Oh, that’s funny. Anyway, I just, I just release a parenting teenagers episode on my other show today. Oh, really? So how old are your kids? I don’t know how your kids are. Uh, my youngest one will turn 11 this week or this next week. Oh wow. And the oldest one is 13 going on 35.

I, I have years of, I have 20 years of working with teenagers. I used to be a youth minister. Oh, really? And so I, I’ve trained for this my whole life. Yeah. Everybody’s like, still just wait till their teenager’s like, nah, I’m good. This, this is the group I have. [00:18:00] They’re actually interesting in this age group to me, you know, it’s,

Max Shippee: it’s funny you say that because my, my wife taught English for years more than a dec years and years and years.

And she loved high school, like she taught high school. And for me, I love the little ones, like the little ones. I spin ’em around, thrash, super fun teenagers. Most of ’em I want to choke, you know, most of them. She loves teenagers, she totally gets them. So it was great to have kind of the bridge between the two where she’s like, little kids, she’s like, oh my God, there’s just noise.

I’m like, it’s happy noise. Whatcha talking about? You know? I’m like, oh my god, teenagers, I wanna choke ’em. She’s like, no, they just, you gotta sit with them and you gotta listen. I’m like, oh, I gotta listen. Okay. You know? So we’ve learned that from each other and yeah, the youth minister thing I’m sure helped for sure.

But you, it’s funny how you trade one set of weeds for another set of weeds. You’re like, oh, we’re out of the weeds. They’re teenagers. You’re like, no, no, no, no. There’s a different set of weeds coming and you still gotta get through those too. So, well, congrats on having a, a couple, a couple good ones there.

And getting this far. At least, you know, I don’t hate you yet, you’re doing them. Alright.

Brent Dowlen: I was laughing about you saying, telling your daughter, you know, I, I, I [00:19:00] gotta be dad for a minute. Yeah. One of the side effects of doing this particular show Uhhuh, is my, my kids, my, my studio’s in my house, my kids, my life is very front and center right for them.

Right. One of the interesting side effects, this is actually I opened a new level of conversation for my daughters.

Reel: Because

Brent Dowlen: I can literally say, okay, girls, we’re putting the dad hat down for a minute, and we’re doing that. Right. Right. Or putting the dad hat back on. Right. We’re gonna have a serious conversation.

Right. But they get the metaphor. So, well now, after listening to me do the episodes and stuff that I, I can actually use it in our conversations now. Like, all right, we’re putting on the fun hat. You know, we’re gonna, we’re gonna go play for a little while.

Max Shippee: You wait, they’re gonna, I, if they haven’t already, I’m sure they rolled their eyes on myself off.

I’m like, oh, I gotta put on the hat. Like, we get it, dad. You know, like, it’s so good. Oh, you, I laugh so much when I get attitudes sometimes from them. It’s just,

Brent Dowlen: it’s hilarious. It’s hysterical. It’s like the story you told, especially

Max Shippee: when [00:20:00] they get Yeah. When they get stressed about something, you’re just like, oh man.

Like, like when they’re little, it’s like, it’s a crayon buddy. It’s, it’s a crayon. You’re gonna be okay. You know? Mm-hmm. And then when they’re older, it’s some other thing and their pants don’t fit right. Or whatever. It’s, you’re like, it’s gonna be okay. Like, you know, you know. Anyway,

Brent Dowlen: it’s like the story you told at the beginning, you know, you’re not supposed to laugh with, when my daughter’s pitch attitude, the the dad in me is like, holds together, hold it together.

The eternal 12-year-old in me is dying inside. Right. To just sling it right back. Just, I was like, oh, that’s pretty good. All right. It’s on now.

Max Shippee: Yeah. Oh yeah. There is that for sure. My wife especially, she’s quicker than I am and there’s like, we just sit sometimes being like, if you wanna go toe to toe like that, like we could wreck your life.

We could wreck you in like 22 seconds. We could just like, you know. But go ahead, think you have, go ahead. You think you have the [00:21:00] upper hand and I’ll just gigg inside. I work on my restraint. You know,

Brent Dowlen: you got the multiple levels of attitude. You got the Yes. I’m giving you attitude. Then the, then the subtle, they’re trying to tell you something.

My, my oldest right. Gave me a book of dad jokes. ’cause I’m not that funny when I started doing the show. Yes. She’s like, here, dad, you need this more than I do.

Max Shippee: And you’re like, yes, well done, well done. High five. Like, you know, when they get you. I love it when they give it back to me like that. I’m like, yes, it’s such, it’s so good.

It’s so good. Is that a metaphor into, is that a, is that a movement into the dad joke? We’d haven’t done our job. Oh,

Brent Dowlen: we need to do our dad joke. You got a dad joke for us. Yeah.

Max Shippee: I got, I got a, my, my favorite one is, is have you heard the, the joke about the skunk?

Brent Dowlen: No,

Max Shippee: it stinks. That’s like one of my favorite go-tos.

And the parallel one to that is, um, did you hear about the new, uh, vinyl record they made with the candy? [00:22:00]

Reel: Mm-hmm.

Max Shippee: It’s pretty sweet. You know, those are my two really quick go-tos. What about yours? You got a new one outta your book there or what?

Brent Dowlen: Uh, I, I don’t have a new one out. My, my favorite one I’ve, I’ve found since I started doing this, ’cause you know, now I look for really good dad jokes.

Right. Of my Instagram feed, of course is filled with just dumb dad jokes at this point. ’cause I, I love it. Those are the ones I find I like, I’m gonna fall that. Yeah. Right. Uh, what, what do you call it when Batman skips church?

Max Shippee: Go ahead,

Brent Dowlen: Christian. Baal.

Max Shippee: That’s great. Right? That’s great. That’s really good. Yes, I’m all about that.

What’s the Shark’s

Brent Dowlen: favorite saying?

Max Shippee: Shark’s favorite saying?

Brent Dowlen: Mm-hmm.

Max Shippee: No, what do you got, man over? Oh, that’s good. That’s really good. I was [00:23:00] trying to figure out jaws bite blood, trying to, you know what I mean? Like your brain’s going, you know, trying to figure out what it’s,

Brent Dowlen: now see, you’re figuring out my evil plan. My evil plan is I do this show so I can sit around and look at dad jokes all day on the internet and call it work.

I can write it off my taxes, you know?

Max Shippee: Right. Exactly. Exactly. But now I’m wicked funny. Or at least I think I am.

Brent Dowlen: Yeah. Yeah. I, I can tell how bad the joke is or how good the joke is by how hard my daughter rolls her eyes.

Max Shippee: Yes. How, how many times they roll back in her head. Yeah. Couple times, right. She goes full exorcist.

You’re like, yes. When she’s like, dad,

Brent Dowlen: just, just stop. I, I know. It’s a good joke. I gotta stick with that one right. Love it, max. Um,

Max Shippee: so wait, with all your podcasts, have you written a book yet? Like

Brent Dowlen: have you done the book thing yet? That’s actually where my podcast started, my original podcast. Oh, really? I started writing a book back in 2020.

Okay. And I got about 140 pages in. [00:24:00]

Max Shippee: Okay.

Brent Dowlen: And started looking at self-publishing. ’cause it’s like, well, nobody knows who I am, so, you know, I’m not gonna get picked up by Random House or something. Right,

Max Shippee: right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brent Dowlen: Uh, so I started looking at self-publishing and realized I needed to build an audience.

Max Shippee: Okay.

Brent Dowlen: And I thought, okay, well how do I do that? Right? So it was 2020, everybody was getting Insta famous, so I was like, I’ll jump on social media. Right. So I, I created the handle and jumped on social media and it took about two weeks for me to go, God, I hate social media. Like this is the worst thing mankind has ever done.

Right. Um, I’m, uh, there’s no way I’m going to be able to climb this ’cause I hate being on it at all. Right.

Max Shippee: Right. Hate everything about it. And to this

Brent Dowlen: day, like my social media accounts are really low fouling. ’cause I’m bad at doing social media.

Max Shippee: Yeah. It’s a thing. It’s a whole separate skill for sure.

Brent Dowlen: It is.

Right? Yeah. And so then I was like, well, what’s the medium I’m gonna be good at? And being a preacher’s kid and a former minister, I started doing, like, I started speaking in [00:25:00] front of 200 plus people when I was 11 years old.

Max Shippee: Yep.

Brent Dowlen: You know, most people are terrified of public speaking. I am who comfortable on the mic in front of thousands of people.

It’s, I thrive on it.

Max Shippee: I’m so parallel to that. Sorry to interrupt you, uh, but I’ll, I’ll let you finish your story. But my wife said that to me once that like being the actor and, you know, the whole thing, same thing on stage. Mm-hmm. I mean, I was in, I was in dance recital since I was four, you know, and Alice, my wife, she told me, she said, you know, max, not everyone sees a stage and wants to get on it.

And I was like, what, what, what are you talking about? That’s the best thing ever. She goes, no, not for some people. You know? So I could totally relate to that. Like, oh yeah, it’s no problem being in front of people at all. So, sorry, I, I was a

Brent Dowlen: stage manager in high school. Like I, I passed up an opportunity to go to Julliard.

Oh, wow. I was, I was a stage manager all through high school and, uh, I, I love That’s awesome. I love the technical side of all of it. Fun. I didn’t care. It’s right. If I’m on stage, I love the technical side behind everything. Yeah. I like creating the [00:26:00] illusion and

Max Shippee: yeah. That part’s super fun to, to hit a lighting cue or music cue just right.

Mm-hmm. And to change the mood and da da dah. It’s like, it’s awesome. It’s awesome

Brent Dowlen: to create Yeah. To, to make the audience actually buy what the actor is selling. Right. You, you have to have a good team.

Max Shippee: You do. You Absolutely. Yeah, I do. I help the middle school. The middle school does a musical every year, and since my son was in the musical, I started helping them because.

They’re just overwhelmed teachers. And I was like, has anybody moved the lights for this show? They’re like, they’re like, move the lights. I’m like, has anyone moved the lights ever? They’re like, not for us. I’m like, oh my God. So clamp on a ladder. You know what I mean? Like the whole thing. So I totally relate to the backstage part.

It’s, and it’s super, it’s very dad too, you know, like I’ll go up on the ladder and the light and, you know, very, actually I actually got

Brent Dowlen: pulled into my first kids production this last fall. Uh, my daughters, they, my daughters were in the children’s theater production.

Max Shippee: Awesome.

Brent Dowlen: Uh, and I got there [00:27:00] and a friend of ours was the director.

And I’m watching her scramble to try and figure out how to turn on the lights just so they can practice. And I’m realizing she doesn’t have help and it’s like, okay, I was gonna sit here in the back of auditorium, buy, laptop and work.

Max Shippee: Yep. Looks like you’re working, but not like you thought you were. Yeah.

Yeah. So I

Brent Dowlen: spent the next several weeks at practice setting up lighting, moving lights, figuring out their system. ’cause none of the teachers knew how to use their lighting or their audio system.

Max Shippee: Of

Brent Dowlen: course. Um, it’s like, uh, okay, you made the

Max Shippee: show that much better though, right?

Brent Dowlen: Well, I did what I could, but they gave me a couple kids who wanted to be in the background, and so we got to work on some theory and how it act, liked to actually interact and enhance and

Reel: yeah.

Brent Dowlen: So, you know, that, that was fun. But yeah, I got pulled into that. I’ll probably get pulled into it again this year. I have no doubt. Yeah.

Max Shippee: That’s awesome. That’s a wonderful gift to be able to give your kids and to be involved in a way where you’re around them without telling them what to do and you get to meet all their friends.

Mm-hmm. Like that’s what I liked about [00:28:00] helping out was that, you know, there’s very, once they move from, like when they’re little to middle school into high school, like you don’t, you know, you don’t hang out with their friends. They start to do their own thing a little bit more. You’re not, you’re not doing a play date with the other parents.

You’re kind of dropping ’em off and you know, you don’t meet ’em all. And that’s what I liked is that by the end of the musical, I knew 50 kids pretty well. You know, and that’s such a gift to yourself, you know, to be that part of their lives. And they’re like, oh, your dad’s the one that does the thing. Yeah.

You know? Yeah. And you notch up with the cool dad thing, and then they’re not embarrassed about you. You know, when you drop them off, like, oh yeah, my dad does the lights, you know, as opposed to just drop me off down the block, you know, I don’t wanna see you. Yeah. You know?

Brent Dowlen: So, and, and you know the people they’re spending time around.

Max Shippee: Yeah, exactly. And they’re more comfortable.

Brent Dowlen: So dad’s listening, I’m telling you, it is so important that you know everybody, that your children are spending time around.

Max Shippee: Mm-hmm.

Brent Dowlen: They’re teachers, their friends. It is so important for you to know who these people are Yep. And what they’re about.

Max Shippee: Yeah. I mean, that’s [00:29:00] why so many dads, I think, you know, we’re talking about the theater side, but so many dads are coaches, or so many dads are, that sort of thing.

Mm-hmm. Because you get to, you get to meet a lot of those kids and find out what they’re really about. And you can see right away, like, okay, that kid, they still need parents around. And that kid’s totally cool, you know, not to be judgy or whatever, but you, you get a feel for. For different kids and, and where they are in their maturity and that sort of thing.

And you can kind of steer your own kid where you want them to go accordingly. Otherwise you’re like, oh yeah, little Johnny’s fine. You’re like, Nope. He’s the guy who keeps, you know, he’s digging ditches and trying to eat worms even though he is 13 or whatever. It’s, you know. So, anyway, sorry. I think interrupted you in the middle of your, your story there because you’re,

Brent Dowlen: they don’t wanna hear me.

They’ve heard my story, so, oh, the, the book, that’s where we were

Max Shippee: talking about the book. So yeah, you started with a book and then you ended up Yeah, yeah. Building an audience with a podcast, because that’s what you’re better at. That’s what you’re saying? Yeah.

Brent Dowlen: Yeah. And I’ve never finished that book, but I started another one.

Oh, really? So,

Max Shippee: and is the book, like, was it a fiction thing? Was it like a dad thing? Was it like a No,

Brent Dowlen: it’s, uh, it’s a more of a [00:30:00] personal development focus. Um, okay. My other show is primarily around relationships and personal development.

Reel: Okay, cool. It’s,

Brent Dowlen: it’s, how do I say it? It’s about personal development, but relationships are a core to that because

Max Shippee: of course they’re,

Brent Dowlen: to me, yeah.

You fundamentally the relationships in your life. Have everything to do with whether you can, will develop as a person and Yeah. How you do it yourself. So it, it was leaning around there. Um, I’ve taken a break from that one and actually working on a, uh, relationship book that I’m,

Max Shippee: okay, cool.

Brent Dowlen: Four or five chapters into.

Max Shippee: Awesome.

Brent Dowlen: So mad respect. ’cause you were not only wrote a book, you wrote a fiction book. So you had to create this world, which I am in awe, like of authors who actually sit down and create their own entire universe and yeah. All the love and depth it takes to be able to do that.

Max Shippee: Yeah.

Brent Dowlen: Uh, nonfiction to me seems a lot easier than tion.

Yeah, it’s funny. Say that

Max Shippee: because, you know, I’ve, I’ve [00:31:00] also, you know, on the side note here, I’ve run a, I do it less now, but in 2009 I opened up a CrossFit gym. You know, fitness has been a part of my life, therefore, personal development kind of falls right next to that, you know? Mm-hmm. So I can totally, you know, I can, I’ve read more as much, you know, when some of the young guys come to the gym now and they’re in their twenties, I’m like, I’ve forgotten more about this than you would’ve will ever know, you know?

Um, and my wife and I we’re very, you know, like any marriage, very early in our marriage, we had a couple bumps and we found a really good marriage coach and therapist, and we still go every two weeks, even though we’re great, you know, so we’ve, we’ve, we think our relationship is really good because of that coaching and that constant attention to it.

Mm-hmm. You know, um, especially when you have kids, you, you forget about each other. Yeah. You know, you’re like, oh. Like I still, oh yeah. I’m especially like as the first one goes off to college, you’re like, oh, it’s gonna be just us in a bit. Like, we better make sure we get along. This is gonna go south quick.

Yeah. Um, so, um, so [00:32:00] yeah, I, I totally understand that personal development part. It’s, uh, it can be. It’s funny because like we were just, ha my wife and I were just having this whole experience right now where what you put out is what you get back. Like that seems to be the theme of the past five, four or five months where, you know, someone thinks that someone else is trying to take advantage of them and they weren’t.

But now that you’re acting like that, like it sure seems that way and then it twists the whole situation. And the other person’s like, well if you think that about me, then I might as well try. You know, like it’s this weird thing where, you know, you really do what, how you see the world is how the world kicks it back at you, you know?

And that for sure applies to the relationship. You know, if you see your wife as someone who’s supporting you and loving you and helping get to your goals, then that’s what they are. If you, and they literally, they will be that. And if you see someone who’s like, oh, they’re, they’re in my way, or they’re, you know, trying to do this, then you’re gonna find every reason to, to make that right and to make yourself right.[00:33:00]

And it’s funny, I’ll blend that into like the story, the fiction, because the. The, your brain will look for a story, even if it doesn’t know what it is. You know, it’ll look for a reason. You know, someone cuts you off in traffic and you’re like, the story you tell is that guy’s a jackass. That could be right.

It could be that, you know, they’re their kid, they’re running to the hospital. It could be, you know, he just spilled coffee on his lap. It could be a million things, but even if your brain doesn’t know the story, it, it will make something up just so it doesn’t not have a story because it’s the way that it understands the world.

You know, and that’s where I think a lot of the self-development and and personal development is really key, is that it helps you to change your story. ’cause once you change your story about how you’re seeing the world, you can change your way in the world as well. So like, and relationship is the what best way to do that.

It’s great. You’re, you’re doing that because like, that’s, it’s literally, other people are the reflection of who you’re becoming. So that’s a key to. What you’re putting [00:34:00] out in your relationship, I assume relationship is both, uh, um, significant other and friends and family and the rest that I assume you, you get on both of those.

Brent Dowlen: Oh, yeah. Yeah. It’s, it’s the immediate relationships in your life have so much of an impact on, and that is your spouse and your kids. Right. It starts right there. Those core, fundamental family, relationship, and ex expands, right? Yeah. If you walked into my house and started asking about our family, yeah.

You have the immediate family that lives in my roof, which my wife, my kids, and my mom, and they live here, but we also have two or three friends that they show up unannounced. Their family, their, my kids call them uncle or aunt, and, and they’re, that’s they’re part of our lives and, right. Yep. That’s great.

And then you’ve been to that next level of friends and, but those people all significantly impact your journey. Yeah. And if those relationships aren’t healthy, the rest of your life goes south real quick.

Max Shippee: Yeah. You, no one does it alone, you know? No one does it alone. You think? [00:35:00] I love that Arnold Schwarzenegger talked about that.

Someone was asking him about him being a self-made man, and he was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I was not self-made. He is like, from when I got to the us like, guys help me at the gym and guys got me jobs and this guy was my first coach and this, he’s like, I am not self-made. Like yes, I wanted to go in a direction.

I decided where I wanted to go, but there’s a, there’s a list of people that have helped me along the way that have made me who I’m, that have, you know, and it was just such a great thing from, he’s one of the few people that, uh, I mean he’s had some drama in his life, of course, you know? Yeah. A kid with a maid or whatever, you know, I’m not saying he’s perfect, but you know, he’s, he seems to, he seems to not step away from his flaws and, and be like, yeah, this is who I am and I’m still working on it.

You know, like, and of course I used to have from when I was a kid, I have Arnold Awar and Acres Encyclopedia of Bodybuilding, so there’s a little.

Brent Dowlen: What Meathead hasn’t read that? Come on. [00:36:00] Oh

Max Shippee: my God, it’s so good.

Brent Dowlen: I read that when I was young. Young’s in his little, like,

Max Shippee: he’s in his little like Speedo thing when he’s lifting and all the pictures.

It’s just, it’s so good.

Brent Dowlen: So Max. Anyway, let’s, let’s talk about stories. ’cause you started into stories Sure. And the stories we tell ourselves as fathers and

Reel: Right.

Brent Dowlen: That’s where you wanted to go today, I think.

Max Shippee: Yeah. So, yeah. Well it’s funny ’cause you mentioned fiction and making up your own story, you know, from your head.

Um, and of course the funny thing about the story in some ways that we love the same story over and over, you know, it’s like, Hey, here’s the good guy. And he gets, he gets all the bad guys. You’re like, yeah, okay, tell it again, but this time make him have spider powers. You’re like, okay. So the good guy gets all the bad guys.

You’re like,

Reel: yeah,

Max Shippee: okay. This time make it like he’s a secret agent. You’re like, okay, here’s the good guy. And he gets all the bad guys. He’s like, yeah, you know, it’s the same story over and over and over. Just told differently. Um, so on the one hand, you know, [00:37:00] it is the same story and that kind of gives you a wonderful structure to build, you know, out fiction, out within your own story out as well.

Um, like, who’s the hero of your story? Are you the hero of your day? Are you the victim of your day? You know? Um, and, but on the other hand, it’s really fun to find out what makes this story interesting and unique because you can literally tell the same story and little kids love that. They love to know what’s gonna happen and that sort of thing.

Um, but it is fun to be like, wait, here’s elements of this and elements of that, and how do they all tie together? Um, you know, one of the best in my acting world, I did a lot of improv, excuse me, improvisation. And, um, they teach you how to. Had a really quickly, I did some musical improvisation, which is you literally do a musical, people give you a suggestion, you perform a musical based on it.

Um, and my coach, Tara Copeland, she’s amazing. And one of the great things about that that I learned was that, um, heroes versus villains, heroes generally will, [00:38:00] um, they will give up something they thought they wanted for the thing they really want, right? So they’ll give up the, the, the gold to save the girl so they get love.

That’s the classic, the classic thing, right? They’re like, ah, fine, I don’t get the gold. And I go and I save the person because that’s really what you want. It’s to be the person that does that. Um, and of course, and by doing that, yay, you get the gold anyway. You know, that’s always the, that’s always kind of the trick.

So generally speaking is that the hero will give up something they want or in order to become a better person. It’s, it’s about personal change usually where a villain. Wants everything else to change around them, but not them. So they’re like, yes, and I will control the world and everyone will be just like this.

No personal change at all. So I’ve used that so much in my own life. That piece of hero story, if you will, to be like, okay, wait, am I trying to get other people to change? Or [00:39:00] is this an opportunity for me to grow somehow? You know, to the point where even with my kids, like, you know, you get anxious or nervous about, I mean, we don’t, but like public speaking or something like that.

You know, something that, you know, otherwise is technically safe, you know? And we’ve coached this with our kids that like, when you have that feeling, that means you’re about to grow. You know, as long as you’re safe and it’s not in a back alley somewhere, but you’re nervous about giving a report, you’re nervous about the basketball game, you’re nervous about, you know, whatever it is, meeting these new friends, like that means you’re about to grow.

You’re about to become something that you’re not yet, you know? And I found that true in the hero’s, in the hero’s journey. That’s where the torment comes from for the hero is like they have to grow into a bigger version of themselves, and the villain is the opposite of that. They want everyone else to change and then they’ll be okay.

Which is a very interesting way of kind of framing e everything from, you know, your own, my own personal journey to, to politics, to, you know, when you think someone’s motivated, like, oh, are they trying to change [00:40:00] me? Okay, well maybe I do have stuff to work on. I’m not saying I’m perfect, but like, man, it seems like they just want the world to change around them and they’re not willing to do anything else.

And just like, okay, well that’s where they’re going. You know? Um, so yeah, I think that story is way more important in our lives than we realize. And oftentimes arguments, um, um, um, conflict, like conflict is kind of an conflict is, is kind of inevitable, like in our lives, right? Like people have different needs.

That doesn’t mean it has to be like fighting or confrontation or, um, is a better word that, that’s leaving you right now. Um, and it has to do with the, with the story that you’re telling about the other person. You know what I mean? Like you’re telling yourself a story about like, well I know what they’re doing this because No, no, nah.

You know, and you find out that, oh no, and I’m using trite examples, I get this. But like, you know, the, the guy had a flat tire today, so he was in a bad mood. He [00:41:00] didn’t, he doesn’t hate you. It was just he had a bad day. Or, you know, you don’t realize that, you know, someone who’s a little short with you is like, no, they, they were doing, and you think they kids a little bit using kids in his example on a dad show, sorry, like, you’re like, oh, that guy’s kid’s a little weird.

It’s like, no, you don’t realize that, you know, that kid’s been struggling with dyslexia for the past five years and you know, like you don’t realize the stories that people have. Um. So I think that’s where story is very important, especially as dads. Like, what are the stories we’re telling about ourselves as a dad and how I’m doing?

You know, that can be very powering, disempowering, or empowering, depending. And then of course, what are the stories you’re telling about your kids, about your wife, about your relationships? Like you said, you know, like what’s the story you’re telling, like, or what stories are coming back to you as people come to you?

Do people come to you when they have something that they need to work on, or they need to get off their chest or they need help with? You’re like, oh, I must have a good internal story going because people are coming to me to help level themselves up, you know? Um, but yeah, [00:42:00] my book is, is hopefully, um, interesting for that because I’m trying to weave in a, uh, a positive masculine image underneath this whole thing.

Um, and remind me, I’ll, I’ll send you a copy so you have a, a copy. I, I, I think you dig it. That’d be cool. Um, the, um, yeah, it, it, I think you’d, I think you’d really dig it. Um. That in this land of, and I don’t want to get, you know, it’s your show. I don’t wanna make anything like political and doesn’t have to be, but you know, there’s a whole thing about toxic masculinity, which I think is accurate.

I think there’s a whole bunch of stuff that men have gotten away with and done in the past that really needs to be examined. Um, but at the same time, man, like there’s some really great things about guys and about the divine masculine, if you will, that really helps the world. Um, and my book is kind of an attempt to show what those things are through a wonderful, fictional story where it’s not hitting it on the head, you know, where it’s like, men are great and they’re awesome all the [00:43:00] time.

It’s like, uh, you know, not all the time, like most of the time we’re trying pretty hard, you know. Um, but you know, my book is basically about to, to truncate it as as small as possible. Um, you know, it’s about a young black boy in the South in 1910, and he basically discovers, he’s the reincarnation of King Arthur and he, and so there’s witches and werewolves and magic and some other stuff.

And, um, this is the first book of probably three or four, um, to kind of take that, take that journey, you know, so it doesn’t lean into the ar Arthur like theology or myth too hard. It’s just kind of a little tap of your hat to that. Mm-hmm. And then they kind of have their own journey. Um, but it’s, um, but I, I, I hope that it’s a way that we, this, that we explore both the, you know, when I say divine, I mean, you know, you can, if you wanna look at it in a God-like sense, that’s fine, but like, I mean divine, like what the highest positive aspects of masculinity are and the divine feminine as [00:44:00] well.

And I’m hoping to find where those both things cross and they support each other. Um, and I’m doing that trying to do it through a fictional story. And once again, I don’t. I mean, I’m saying that on a podcast and people will see that in it, hopefully. But it’s not like I’m being like, and then this is why the guy is good and this is why I’m not trying to be on the nose of it.

You know, because then you’re like, you get the eye roll from your 13-year-old, you know, too on the nose of it. Anyway, that’s a lot of talk about story. Anything like did I overtalk that or is that about,

Brent Dowlen: um, no, and, and the whole masculinity conversation being a men’s coach and a men’s podcaster. Trust me, I’ve gone down that rabbit hole and, and, and then some and probably a dozen plus episodes and, uh, more than a few debate.

’cause there is, there is such

Max Shippee: a thing like, you know, we can talk about the term if you want to, but like, there is a thing, like there have been men that have messed stuff up. I’m not gonna mm-hmm. Say there hasn’t at all. But at the same time you’re like, hold on just a minute. [00:45:00] We do some good stuff too.

Like, you know, there’s, there’s some really. Really good things to help us balance our lives and to be a good dad. And, and we’re just talking about a friend of ours who’s like, you know this gal whose dad isn’t present, and you’re like, you can tell, you know, not, I’m not judging, I’m not anything, but you can tell, you know, oh, I’ll judge hell if

Brent Dowlen: I, I’m not, that, I’m not that finding that nice anymore.

I’ll, I’ll judge the crap out of it. Oh, right. It’s like I, I I call it how I see it at this point. Um,

Max Shippee: yeah.

Brent Dowlen: What a lot of people like to term is toxic masculinity. In my, my, my take on it is, is actually a lack of masculinity. If you look at most of the traits that people call toxic masculinity, right. What you’ll find is insecure in ema non masculine men.

Max Shippee: Interesting. That’s a great way to think of it. There’s an absence there. There is. That’s a good, that’s a good take on it because you’re right. Like if you’re secure, if you’re [00:46:00] confident, if you’re understanding, you’re not gonna have those. Toxic traits, right? Mm-hmm. That’s good. So what would you list as your positive or traits you should be having to keep toxic masculinity at bay?

What would you say are your, like what do you, what do you generally coach? I’m interested now. This is super fun. I, I’m

Brent Dowlen: in, I’m interested. Integrity is a big one for me.

Max Shippee: Um, yeah. And when you say integrity, is that like matching thought word indeed Or is that,

Brent Dowlen: that is telling the truth even if it costs your life and living the truth, whether, whatever it costs you.

Right. Uh, when I was in the military, they explained integrity is, you know, doing the right thing even when no one sees it. Yep. Right. Even if you get away with it, um, you don’t.

Reel: Right, right.

Brent Dowlen: I think discipline is incredibly important as a trait for a masculine man. You have to have discipline.

Max Shippee: When you say discipline, you mean to maintain integrity?

Do you mean [00:47:00] discipline in,

Brent Dowlen: you have to have discipline for yourself. Right? How you conduct yourself. Do you take care of yourself? Do you hold yourself accountable? Do you hold yourself to a higher level?

Reel: Right.

Brent Dowlen: Do you push yourself or just let it go? Right. Um, but I think one of the most underrated traits, ’cause you’ll, most of the mic list off, you’ll, you’ve probably heard from a dozen other people, but I think one of the most undervalued one is humility.

Mm. Yeah. Um, I’m with you. They, they summed it up. I don’t know if you’ve ever, like I, I love the Witcher with Henry Cavell. Yeah. Okay. Right. One of the greatest scenes in that entire series Okay. Is when Yaker drags him into the court, big function or whatever, the queen. Yep. And he’s sitting there on the side and two nobles start arguing about they killed this monster.

Right. And she’s like, [00:48:00] well, we have a witcher right here. Why don’t you settle it? That man is the biggest badass in the room.

Reel: Right.

Brent Dowlen: The most dangerous man in the entire place.

Reel: Right. And

Brent Dowlen: he very calmly to save face for these two noble men.

Max Shippee: Right.

Brent Dowlen: Plays it down. It’s just probably just a breed I’ve never seen before.

My Lord, blah, blah, blah. And then he openly admits to, he is like, then you know this from the witcher who you know, did this. He’s like, truthfully, he had a blade to my neck and I was try not to shit myself.

Max Shippee: Right,

Brent Dowlen: right. And is this utter I can, I don’t need to blow it up. I don’t need to escalate this. I don’t need to.

I know who I am and that’s enough. I don’t have to prove it. I don’t have to demonstrate it. I can let you have your illusions. This is not worth the escalation. Right. Yeah. And that humility comes with security in who you are. Yeah,

Max Shippee: true. You’re right. I think most men

Brent Dowlen: never develop that these days. That [00:49:00] total security of I know who I am, I know where I stand.

Reel: Right.

Brent Dowlen: I don’t need someone else’s approval. I don’t need somebody else to think big of me. Yeah. I’m, I’m good here. And with that comes a humility.

Max Shippee: Yeah. Some of us who grew up, people pleasers, like that’s super, super, super tough one to get. It is. It is.

Brent Dowlen: I have a friend who, that’s one of the biggest struggles I’ve watched him overcome over the last several years of his life is he is went from a total people pleaser to, he is now shifting and he hasn’t totally kicked it yet, but he has made massive strides to Yeah.

Being secure and is like, no, I’m me. I’m good. I don’t have to appease everybody. I can just, yeah.

Max Shippee: Some of that I found just comes with age, you know, like. I turned 50 in May, and something happened when you turned 50, you’re just like, yeah, I don’t have time for that crap anymore. Like, I just don’t. Right. You know, something about it.

You’re like, I’m, I’m at the halfway point, at [00:50:00] least, you know, or damn close to it. And you’re like, yeah, I don’t, yeah, I don’t need to impress anybody. I don’t need to, you know, blow it up. I don’t even like, this is who I am at this point, and let’s, let’s work with these. I’m not saying I’m, you not still trying to improve and the rest of it, you know, you’re always trying to on, on that thing.

But that’s good. I like, um, you know, he’s kind of out of fashion now, but, um, um, uh, 12 Rules for Life, uh, Peterson there. Yeah. Yeah. One of his, his, his, his rule number four is always tell the truth or at least don’t lie. Mm-hmm. And that’s the one that we really, really, really try to have in our family. And I love the fact that he’s like, always tell the truth, or at least don’t lie because how we.

Coached our kids to do that was, you know, sometimes there’s stuff you can’t say. You know, like my daughter’s walking around, she’s kind of in a funky mood. I’m like, you okay? She’s like, I’m fine. Okay. Like, well, that’s actually not true. You’re not fine. But what is true is that she can say, well, my friend kind of told me something about, you know, her boyfriend, she’s safe and all, but she said, I couldn’t talk to [00:51:00] anybody about it, but I’m really thinking about it.

It’s like, okay, your friend asked you not to say anything. You can’t say specifically what it’s, to me, I get that I’ll honor what you go with your friend, but don’t say you’re fine. And don’t say they’re fine. You can say like, yeah, I’m having trouble with this, but I really can’t talk about it. Cool. You know what I mean?

You told it, you didn’t lie. Mm-hmm. That it was, you know, so, and that has followed. That’s one of the best, because that follows everything else. You know, if you’re telling the truth, then you have to have discipline about it, like you, like you’re doing, and there’s a certain humility in the truth that can’t be denied as well.

It’s just a really, really, it’s, it’s so important because also truth is if you have that, then your story is correct. If you’re building your, you know, if you’re building an entire story about your relationship with someone or your marriage or your life, and it’s all built on top of a lie. Once someone discovers that lie, the whole thing mm-hmm.

Comes apart. It just, it just, it just dissolves into nothing. So, you know, that’s a, that’s a huge piece, the integrity and the truth piece. [00:52:00] That’s really good.

Brent Dowlen: I think you’re right on with the age thing though, right? Because at 45 I don’t have the drama, I don’t have the room for the drama in my life. I’m not Yeah, you just don’t.

You just don’t. And so, and you add, we change that story. We’re telling ourselves, it’s like, oh, this matters. Uh, does it right at 45. I’m like, I’m not sure. It really does to me at this point, right? So now I’m telling myself I give a shit a totally different story that sometimes you have to make few miles in life before you’re comfortable telling yourself.

Some people get it early on, and that’s a huge blessing. But right there you hit certain ages and you’re like. Your story changes that you’re telling yourself. ’cause like, oh, I have, I have less time to screw around. I’m 30 now. I should get serious about my career and Right. And making money and building.

Right, right. I I I don’t have the time for the 20-year-old stuff anymore. No, you don’t. ‘

Max Shippee: cause you’re going somewhere, you know, like you’re just doing. Yeah. You get, you get better shit to [00:53:00] do than to deal with all that, you know? So that’s good stuff, man. That’s really good. Awesome.

Brent Dowlen: Becoming a dad changes that story big.

Max Shippee: Oh yeah.

Brent Dowlen: You get a huge per perspective shift.

Max Shippee: Huge. Like, I remember, like, we were very fortunate in that we had all our kids at home, so it was super, super, super cool. But man, that when you hold that first one, you’re just like, ooh. Like, and that was really tricky for us because for me anyway, I don’t know if any of your listeners can relate to this or maybe even you can.

Like, I felt so much pressure now to produce. To like, make sure everything was taken care of, that I really lost sight of my relationship with my wife for a while, you know?

Reel: Mm-hmm.

Max Shippee: It was, it was like, and that’s why, if I remember right, that’s why we ended up shifting and getting into some couples counseling and therapy is because like, you know, I had neglected that.

I’m like, well, I’m doing what I’m supposed to be doing, you know, and I’m justifying the whole thing, you know what I mean? To be like, this is what, [00:54:00] what the guy does. Like, yeah, you, but you can’t, you can’t drop this other piece, you know, you gotta, you gotta keep, you gotta keep the wife that, that relationship alive as well.

You know? That was the big, big lesson through that. Um, but yeah, I’m sure you can relate to that. When you have that kid, you’re like, oh, I gotta, it ain’t about me anymore,

Brent Dowlen: gentlemen, if your relationship is not where you want it to be, I want you to know I got you. Relationships take a lot of work and can fall on the back burner pretty easily as your empire building in your life.

Just like Max mentioned just a few minutes ago. Men often suffer from damage in their relationship while they’re trying to provide and build for their family. And it’s usually the people that matter the most, who suffer the most. Well guys, if your relationships aren’t moving at the rate you want them to, and in a good place, reach out.

Schedule your free discovery. Call over@purposedrivenmen.com to learn the skills you need to connect deeply with the people that matter most when you’re doing this fall for anyways. I know you don’t want them to [00:55:00] fall through the cracks, you don’t want them to fall through the cracks, so let’s fix those things that matter in your life.

Let’s get back to the show. It really isn’t, you

Max Shippee: know? And that’s myself. I mean, most men I talk to, you know, it’s like we’d be happy living in a hermit as a hermit on a side of a mountain. You know, I don’t need all this stuff, you know? And most of us’ like, yeah, that’d be cool. Gimme a knife and lemme go hunt down some bears and stuff, you know?

But sure, it is nice to be able to provide a bunch of stuff for your family. My

Brent Dowlen: daughter and I left about it the other day ’cause she was looking at something. My wife is shoulder and it was a meme or something. It was basically a, a still building. It was a men’s perfect house and it was like a garage and a shop and a gym with a bed in the corner and a small bathroom and a kitchen kitchen.

And my daughter’s like, no. I was like, yep, that’s me right there.

Max Shippee: It wasn’t

Brent Dowlen: for your mom. That’s me right there.

Max Shippee: Right. Exactly. Ex, that’s perfect. Actually a gym, some kind of [00:56:00] workshop, you know what I mean? Right. Bed in the corner. Yep. Fine. Yep. Good. And a barbecue. There we go. We’re

Brent Dowlen: good. I, I don’t even have to have like a full enclosed bathroom, just like a, you know, corner shower head where I can stand in the corner where it drains.

I’m good.

Max Shippee: Exactly. We’re good to go. We’re good to go. It’s so, it’s so true. So true.

Brent Dowlen: Women miss that we build this.

Max Shippee: Yep.

Brent Dowlen: For them. This is not for us. Yeah,

Max Shippee: yeah. Exactly. Exactly. They don’t care about this at all. You know, we care about, look what I look, I welded the lawnmower onto a set of wheels and made a go-kart.

Check it out. You know? That’s what we’re into. It’s one of the swings. I’m glad I didn’t learn how to weld as a kid. I would’ve, I would’ve taken apart lawnmowers and welded engines to everything I could find. Oh God. You know,

Brent Dowlen: I learned welding, but I was working on a ranch at the time, so,

Max Shippee: oh, you

Brent Dowlen: put

Max Shippee: it to use

Brent Dowlen: a lot more practical.

Lot of, we,

Max Shippee: I did a lot of, I did a lot of woodworking [00:57:00] as a kid. Helped out a lot with carpentry stuff, so was on the wood side, but never got to the welding. Like I said, it’s probably a good thing I didn’t, geez. Anyway. Um,

Brent Dowlen: max, let, let me ask you, let’s, let’s point this in a direction here. Sure. What is the story we should create for our kids?

To help them grow.

Max Shippee: That’s really good. Um, you know, I, I think you’ve already built it with what you’re just talking about. I would grab a couple of those things for sure. Like, your story should be based in truth, but you should also have a have. Hmm, this is good. You should, you should be reaching, right?

Like, what’s the thing about being happy but not satisfied? Was it, there’s, there’s some terminology there where you’re like, you can be happy with the progress you’ve made, but not satisfied and that you [00:58:00] still want to go make some more progress tomorrow. Um, yeah. The story that Earth kids should be telling is something about that, about you should have a vision, a goal.

Uh, it’s funny because. Goals can be tricky because if you don’t get your goal, like you can feel like you’re not enough for, you know, that sort of thing. So sometimes I like vision better. I, I like goal better sometimes because it’s usually a very grounded thing where, you know, I can play my scales this fast or whatever it is, you know what I mean?

Or I made this amount of money, or I, we won the championship. Like, I like those because they tend to be very firm and grounded, um, over vision. Because vision can sometimes be, you know, I want to be the best this, well, what are you gonna measure that by? You need some metrics, you know? Um, but I would say for the kids, the overall thing I think was try to, try to be really good at something.[00:59:00]

And it actually almost doesn’t matter what that is. It can be Rubik’s Cube, it can be volleyball, it can be guitar, it can be, I’ve read more books than anyone I, oh, it can be a card trick. It can be. Because the, my, a great example is my daughter in that she, she’s a really good archer. Um, she did archery, um, at one point, I think her junior year, she was like fifth in the nation, so she was really, really good.

Wow. Um, and they’re shooting out at like 70 meters, you know, so they’re putting ’em on a, you know, 70 meters, they’re putting ’em on a dot, you know. Um, and the cool thing about that is that, I mean, she doesn’t do it anymore. Like she literally her senior year, she was like, yeah, I’m not gonna go to, like, there’s no such thing really as a professional archer.

Like I, I guess I got, but, but all the tools she learned through archery as far as discipline, as far as working at something, it’s a great, it’s archery and sailing, I think are the two best metaphors for life. Because with [01:00:00] archery, you do all the prep work, you pull it back, you aim it just right, and then you let go.

Like you literally let go and you’re like. I’ve done all I can and now I just have the arrow’s gonna go where it’s gonna go, which I think is a great metaphor for, for life. You know, you gotta aim everything, set it all up, and then you gotta let it go. You know, if, if you used to be a pastor, you get it, you let go, let God, you can see it that way.

Or you can see it as like, I can only control so much, you know? Um, so that’s a great metaphor. Sailing’s a similar thing in that when, I don’t know if you, if you’ve sailed much, but I used to as a kid a little bit here and there on lakes and stuff, you can never quite go where you want to go because you gotta adjust for the wind and where you’re, so you, it’s good to know that like, oh, I can get there, I just gotta go left a little bit and I gotta turn, I gotta go right?

And I gotta, where the wind’s coming from and where’s the current, and there’s a lot of factors at play. Um, yeah. But I would say the story we should be giving our kids is, is something along those lines. Like, what are you aiming [01:01:00] at? Like, are you not aiming right now? Do you even realize you’re not aiming?

Like how are you prepping to be. Better at what you want to be better at. Um, and where’s that gonna lead you? And I think the most challenging thing for kids is it’s hard for them to see the future. They’re very, very present, which is wonderful about them. Um, but um, yeah, because that’s what we see as parents and dads.

Whatever’s like, girl, you’re wasting time. You should be go heading this direction. But that’s good. I don’t, I should, I should have a better answer for that. Like, I would say the story that you want, that we should have or we should want our kids to have is to be, to move towards something with integrity.

I would say that’s kind of off the cuff would be that the closest thing, although now I’m gonna, you watch in an hour, I’m gonna text you something else.

Because that’s how my brain works. You know, you think of it on the car ride home, you’re like, oh, damnit, that was a perfect thing. [01:02:00]

Brent Dowlen: I think, I think everybody’s brain about works that way. Yeah. No, I, I was really curious on the take. ’cause I, I did an interview on my other show with a story work, work coach.

Max Shippee: Okay.

Brent Dowlen: Um, which to me, I, I hadn’t even heard of that. I didn’t know it was a thing, uh, right. It, it was like, I didn’t know hypnosis was a thing until I actually talked to a Hypnos therapist on my show one time. I’m like, right. Really? I thought they just made this shit up from movies that’s like, right. I had no idea.

Max Shippee: Okay. Okay. That’s awesome.

Brent Dowlen: Um, but I had never put stock in the value of the stories we tell ourselves as people, the stories we tell our kids. You know, my brain conceptualized things in stories, and I knew that I, I know that’s the way we understand the world.

Max Shippee: Right.

Brent Dowlen: Um, I never realized how critical was the story we tell ourselves.

Reel: Mm.

Brent Dowlen: And then. By transient how the stories we tell our children about themselves as we’re raising them.

Max Shippee: Yep.

Brent Dowlen: Right?

Max Shippee: Yep.

Brent Dowlen: I don’t think we [01:03:00] always understand as dads some of the things we say to our kids, right. You’re telling them a story that they now believe about themselves. Yeah. You have to be really, really careful on that.

Max Shippee: Yeah. And I think even more so than moms, I think there’s something about the dad energy that is very like, like you said, integrity and truth. So, you know, it’s a dad podcast. We can kind, we can kind of say this, but like, you know, sometimes, ah, mom’s just being mom or mom’s gonna change, or she’s angry now, but she’ll be better later.

Reel: Mm-hmm.

Max Shippee: But if your dad says something like, there’s a certain groundedness truth, like you said, where exactly that. If you. If you, if a dad tells a kid, you’re gonna be all right. They’re like, okay, well, dad said that, so it’s, it’s gonna be all right. Yep. You know, but if dad’s like, Hey, you’re a jackass, then that, it, it, it can sink in there if you’re [01:04:00] not careful, you know, or, you know.

Yeah. There’s truth to that. For sure. For

Brent Dowlen: sure. Yeah. I think that’s one of the, I I’ve guessed on several podcasts. Mm-hmm. Um, talking about the difference between moms and dads and, and, and we need both. They’re important. They’re both equally, equally important. Uh, the, the role of dad frequently in the modern era gets styled down, the value of it, the importance of it.

But there is something that, you know, mom, mom’s bringing stuff to the table that dad’s never could.

Max Shippee: Totally.

Brent Dowlen: But the same is true. Dads bring things to the table that mom never can.

Max Shippee: Yeah,

Reel: yeah,

Brent Dowlen: yeah. Like, like you said, your mom will be like, oh, it’s okay. And you’re like, yeah, but you always think I’m okay.

You always love me. Dad’s like, it’s gonna be okay. And you’re like. Okay. It’s gonna be okay.

Max Shippee: Right. There’s something about that. Something about it. The, the one I loved about the moms and dads and how they were different was some study came out, which of course I had to hold up and show my wife, is that the [01:05:00] bedtime routine?

Reel: Mm-hmm.

Max Shippee: Because for the dads, the bedtime routine tends to be throw the kids around the bedroom as much as possible, thrash ’em around, wrestle ’em down, and then they go to sleep. And the mom routine tends to be, let’s calm down, let’s get read a book. Let’s, you know what I mean? Like 10 tends to be that way.

Um, and the study came out that was like, both work, like all that wrestling does actually help p hormones and da da, and kind of burn off the extra energy of the day. It actually does help them to calm down. So when it, I’m like, see, see, it does work. Like it does work, you know, because so many times, I’m sure you’ve done that same thing.

She’s, she come, I thought you were putting him in bed. I’m like, I am. She’s like, you’re wrestling. I’m like, yeah. That’s how you put him to bed. You wrestle. You know, we’ve had Nancy, both things are valuable both

Brent Dowlen: ways.

Max Shippee: Yeah. Both things are valuable. Both things. Sometimes you need to snuggle and, and you know, sometimes you need to and get in there and, and get the juice out, you know?

So yeah, there’s value to [01:06:00] both. That’s, that’s good. That’s really good. And I think that’s the, the danger is when you think it, I mean that’s with anything, right? Is when you think it has to be only one way.

Reel: Mm-hmm.

Max Shippee: You know, it just has to be like this. It’s like, and I’m not saying there’s not better ways to do things and worse ways to do things, but, you know, I can get to the airport by taking the freeway and I can get to the airport by taking surface streets and it might take a little longer, but I get to see other stuff and, you know what I mean?

It depends on what we’re solving for you. Just trying to get there as fast as you can, or, hey, trying to calm down a little bit and like enjoy the ride a little, you know? So. Look at all the metaphors we’re coming up with, right? It’s great.

Brent Dowlen: Dad’s are good at metaphors. It’s, it’s, it’s

Max Shippee: a dad. We’re really good.

Adam. Almost as good as dad jokes. Almost. Almost. Good. Almost

Brent Dowlen: Max. Where’s the best place for people to connect with you?

Max Shippee: Um, as far as the book goes, um, it’s all, uh, moonshine, of course, is the title of the book, path of the Raven, if you wanna look that up. And all my social is under Reed Moonshine. All the [01:07:00] socials are under that, so if you wanna kind of look it up that way.

Um, I have multiple Instagram accounts. Um, one that I tend to be a little more active on is making Max. Um, I, I kind of came up with that name because I, I’m trying to always remake myself, so I thought that was kind of clever. Um, but yeah, anything about the book, uh, is read moonshine. Um, and Making Max is another one that I, that I have kinda my personal one.

Um, but thank you for having me on today. This has been super, super fun. Like I said, thanks for doing it on short notice. Um, it’d be great to be back when I get the next one and I can be a little bit more prepared and be like, oh yeah, I have a better answer for all these questions now, you know, I’ll be a little bit more clued in.

So, and thanks for doing this for dads. It’s, it’s really important that that dads have a place to go to get advice or, or, or listen and, and kind of explore what it means to be that, that positive masculine, you know. Um, and thank you for giving me a couple things to think about as well, like having the, the toxic masculinity being an absence of masculinity.

I really like that idea. Um, as well as your, your quick [01:08:00] three take on integrity, discipline, and humility. That’s the, that’s good stuff. So thank you for letting me learn from you today too. It’s really good. It’s awesome.

Brent Dowlen: Well, thank you for figuring it out and hey, we, we can, we can improvise, right? I, I’m a theater kid too, so We’ll, we’ll just improv that out and make the show work.

We can riff

Max Shippee: it. We can riff all day, you know.

Brent Dowlen: Guys, we’ll have Max’s contact information, of course, in the show notes, in the podcast description, YouTube description, wherever you’re joining us for this show today, max, it’s your platform. What is the most important thing you want Daz to hear right now?

Max Shippee: It, so see, you can do that now.

Okay, so when I, sorry. When I, um, when I’m writing and when I am what, uh, one of the things I, I, a little note that I go by for myself is tears are truth, right? So when tears come, when emotion comes, that’s actually truth that’s happening. So that’s truth in sadness and happiness and all the things, right?

So when you ask me what it does wanna hear, it gets me going because like, [01:09:00] there’s truth hopefully in what I’m gonna say. And what that is, is like you’re, you don’t have to get it right. You just have to be there. That’s really it. I think of all the stress of like, what? What should I say? What should I do?

What should I, it’s like just, just be there. That’s all you gotta do. Like so many times you just gotta give ’em a hug. Just be there. That’s it. It’s so simple, right? It’s just your presence is what they want. More than your advice. More than your like, yeah, more than your advice. More than your dad jokes. You know what I mean?

They just want your presence. That’s what they want more than anything. So yeah. That’s a weird finish. You’re welcome for that. I like it.

Brent Dowlen: Jesus, guys, thanks for joining us today on the dad hat. Shes podcast, the community of dads just navigating life’s challenges together. Until next time, laugh, learn, and live that [01:10:00] life.